#4 - The California Reparations Plan: It’s On!

TRANSCRIPT

ADAM  0:36 

You know, when we talk about doing reparations, the process can seem kind of overwhelming, right? Like, first, how are you going to convince enough people that it's the right thing to do? And, you know, actually get the votes to get stuff passed into law? And then, not to mention, how does the program actually work? How do you lay out what exactly needs to be done? And how much you're going to pay people and and what the different kinds of changes look like, right, it seems pretty overwhelming.

TONY  1:02 

Yeah, you know, it does seem overwhelming, like even just where to get started. But Shazam. That's what the California reparations Task Force has already done. They've done this - did a bunch of research and have put together a masterpiece of a report that lays out the full history of America's crimes against black people from slavery to today. And then they, you know, moved ahead and created an actual plan for how to make reparations happen. And it's exciting because it you know, it cuts across the full scope of black life from employment to housing, education, health care, criminal justice. Honestly, I don't know if folks realize what a big deal. This is. But it's truly historic.

ADAM  1:43 

 Yeah, this report is really incredible. It's the first time that we know of that anybody has actually sat down and laid this stuff out right, the full history of America's atrocities against black people and the anybody's, right. Anybody - and then what to do about it, right, like a comprehensive, confident plan that's laid out that is now in motion. So okay, so what happens next, you know, when does California start getting some actual laws to make reparations? And, most importantly, you know, when do they start cutting the checks?

TONY  2:14 

Yeah, that's the billion dollar question. Right. So by July 2023, the taskforce will submit a final set of recommendations to the legislature for reparations across all the areas that they study. And in in the interim, they will be conducting more research, doing some listening sessions and hearings and putting a price tag on the dollar amount financial reparations owed by the State of California to black folks - crunching those numbers, crunching numbers and coming up with some some cash right, cut some checks and put some dollars in people's pockets.

ADAM  2:47 

So we have the perfect guest today to dive into what the taskforce is doing and that's the chairperson, Kamilah Moore. Yes.

TONY  2:53 

So Kamilah is going to tell us a whole bunch of stuff starting with the myth of California being a so called free state, right.

ADAM  2:59 

And she's also going to go into who's going to be eligible for reparations. There's a big debate right among people saying it should be lineage based only people who are descended from enslaved people, versus race based and maybe all African Americans. So we're gonna get into that with her.

TONY  3:13 

Another point that Kamilah is going to be taking us through is how there's been a through line from slavery times to now of black people being criminalized and black life being criminalized, and how deep that runs in our in our society's history.

TONY  3:33 

Camila Moore is a reparation scholar, and she's also an entertainment attorney. She's the Chair of the California reparations Task Force, as we mentioned, the first of its kind in the country. She has a BA in Political Science from UCLA and a law degree from Columbia, also a Master of Law degree in international criminal law from the University of Amsterdam, Kamilah Moore, welcome to pay the tab. Thank you for joining us today. We know that this is an especially busy stretch for you. So we're grateful for you sharing some time with us.

KAMILAH  4:00 

Thanks for having me.

TONY  4:02 

First off, congratulations on the release of the task force initial report. I mean, that's like what can we say the report is truly amazing. And it's somewhat shocking the amount of ground that you all covered in a relatively short period of time. So the report does a really thorough job of laying out the history of America's crimes against black people. Why is it important to present all this to the public when we're talking about reparations?

KAMILAH  4:24 

Well, for one, to start with California, I think there's this dominant narrative out there that California was a  free state or had nothing to do with slavery. And I think this task force, and our work has completely disrupted that narrative. Although California entered the Union as a free state in 1850. That was truly only in name. We learned through our research that there were about a little bit over 1500 Black people who were enslaved in California. Um, not only that two years after California was admitted to the Union as a free state, in 1852, California state legislature actually enacted a fugitive slave act. There was a man named Robert Perkins, he was brought to California with his white enslaver. to mine for gold, he found out that California was a free state. And you know, he escaped, he escaped alongside two other black men, they ended up creating their own gold mining enterprise. However, in 1852, when the California State Legislature enacted that Fugitive Slave Act, Robert Perkins, and those two other black men that he worked with, were actually rounded up and deported back to the deep south to become re-enslaved. And so there are many stories like that in California history where it really shows and demonstrates that California was not, in fact, a free state. And it was truly only in name.

TONY  5:54 

So it seems pretty important that a whole lot of us need to be more educated right about America's and California's racist systems, how they've worked in the past and how they continue to operate, in order to mobilize support for reparations, right?

KAMILAH  6:08 

Yes, absolutely. And I've been saying, and I hope that people utilize this 500 Page interim report, not only, you know, as an organizing tool, where they're advocating for reparations on the local, state and federal level, but they primarily use this report as an educational tool as an awareness tool, where we can, you know, learn about California's role in maintaining slavery, with your friends, with your families, with your professional networks. I hope that, you know, this report is socialized in that way.

TONY  6:42 

So each chapter of the report breaks down injustices that occurred in California, specifically and across the country as a whole. Why is it critical to examine both?

KAMILAH  6:54 

Well, it's critical to examine both to really demonstrate to the reader how the federal government was also complicit and primarily responsible in maintaining the institution of slavery and the afterlife of slavery. There's actually a provision in the bill that talks about how in the event that black Californians do receive reparations, essentially, the federal government is not off the hook.

ADAM  7:21 

Let's talk a little about the subject of who's eligible for reparations. We heard there was a lot of debate in the task force over who should be eligible - as we understand it, there were two main approaches one lineage based, right where it's descendants of enslaved people and the other one race based, which is more broadly, right, like all African Americans of different backgrounds. We want to ask you a little bit about that. And maybe start off with like, what were the best arguments that you heard for each of those two approaches?

KAMILAH  7:54 

Yes. So I'll start with the race based argument. I think the best argument for race based reparations proponents were all black people in some way, suffer from systemic racism or discrimination, which is, which is true, right. But we were also presented with the question of how do you structure a reparations program that is the most likely to be upheld by the courts. Erwin Chemerinsky, who is dean of UC Berkeley Law School, he essentially helped us come to our decision to support lineage based reparations when he essentially stated, you know, this argument that all black people suffer from systemic discrimination. Now, it may not be the most convincing to the courts. And so he actually suggested that the task force opt for lineage based programs so reparations would be for, you know, descendants of slaves, rather than all black people. And I was a part of the majority to vote for lineage based reparations. For a variety of reasons.

KAMILAH  8:55 

The history of reparations advocacy in the United States, has always been lineage based - people like Belinda Sutton, who was an enslaved woman who was one of the first enslaved people to actually petition her former enslaver for reparations. You also have people like Queen Mother Ollie Moore, who coined the term descendants of American slaves in 1962. You had the Black Panther Party, who in their third point in their 10 Point platform, called for reparations, essentially calling for 40 acres and two mules, not just one, right, but just on a legal perspective, the question was, you know, how do you structure a reparations program that's most likely to be upheld by the courts, and the Task Force decided to structure it in a way that is race neutral, because we want this this task force and the recommendations that come out of it to be successful. We want these recommendations to actually be implemented so they can change the material lives of people.

ADAM  9:56 

You know, some people are wondering how is this going to work in the real world right, how how can people find out and prove that they're descended from an enslaved person? Do you all have a plan yet on how that would work? Or what do you think is the best approach?

KAMILAH  10:10 

Yes. So we also invited to provide expert testimony to the task force six certified professional genealogists who spoke to the question around, you know, the feasibility - because our ancestors were slaves, they were property, when they were enslaved, they were literally just numbers. They didn't have names on the Slave Schedules until the 1870 census. So, you know, in genealogy, there's a term called the 1870 brick wall, where it's hard for black Americans to trace their lineage before 1870. Because our ancestors were listed as just pure numbers on the Slave Schedules. We are advocating for California African American Freedmen agency, which would be an institution that would primarily be responsible for dispensing the reparations once implemented. But within that office, it would also be an office of genealogy, where professional certified genealogists would be hired on to assist the most vulnerable populations within the African American community (to) demonstrate their eligibility for reparations, because the idea is right, the burden of proof of coming up with whether you're a descendant or not, it shouldn't necessarily be on the individual, it truly should be on the state, the burden should be on the state in acknowledgement of the harm done to the community. And then also the state, providing those types of genealogical resources to the African American community, in and of itself, I argue, is a form of reparations under international law, particularly a form of reparations under restitution, it gets to the point of how do you make a victim whole. Maybe the state should help reconnect them to their family, to their friends who were separated by virtue of state or government action, that being the institution of slavery.

ADAM  12:22 

Wow, can I ask you something real quick, just to follow up? Because I think a lot of people might be really interested in how this genealogy stuff could work. Because you talked about the the brick wall of 1870, right? And I'm just curious, like, in your own family situation, or any others that you may know about, are there things that you were able to do to go, you know, behind that brick wall and get information?

KAMILAH  12:42 

Well, on my mother's side, I think it's because my mother's ancestors were enslaved in the deep South. And if you know, the history of the domestic slave trade in this country, right, the majority of African Americans who lived in the Deep South, more than likely were victims of the domestic slave trade. So that meant that they might have had ancestors who were enslaved in the Upper South, but then they were separated from their families and then deported or transported to the deep south to be enslaved. So it's a lot of family separation, when it comes down to African Americans who are from the Deep South, and my family, from my mother's side are from Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and Louisiana, all deep southern states. And so on my mother's side of the family, you know, we're still trying to figure out our ancestry, I don't think we've gotten to the 1870, I think we've gotten to 1900.

KAMILAH  13:41 

But on my father's side of the family, it's a bit different. And they just were able to keep really good records. And so that's how I was able to find out that on my father's side of my family, they were enslaved on the Whitney plantation, which is a famous plantation.

TONY  13:57 

Yeah. So my, my people, my mother,'s side are from Arkansas, my dad's side from Louisiana. I actually did a genealogy project in high school and I for the life of me, I cannot put my hands on that bad boy. So I'm tearing up my classes to to define that. It's I don't want there to be any, any excuse, you know. That's a personal side. So you mentioned the preliminary recommendations. Let's, let's turn our attention to that. There's so much there. Obviously, we can't cover, you know, a lot of it, but so many great ideas on how to actually start to repair the harms. Right. You know, when I ask you, are there any specific recommendations that you'd like to discuss, like, is there one that most resonates with you as especially important or impactful?

KAMILAH  14:40 

I think having an institution like, you know, the California African American agency, I think would be the most impactful because it gets to, you know, the structural racism and as a recommendation, you know, that type of agency is a literal structure, that African Americans can go to for resources that just doesn't exist today. There's no institution like, for instance, the Office of Tribal Affairs or the office of Immigrant Affairs, there's literally no institution that's particularly catered to the descendants of chattel slavery.

TONY  15:17 

So the report calls out the criminal justice system, right and the prison industrial complex for what they are - over-policing of black neighborhoods, hyper criminalization of black people, forced prison labor, you know, go on and on. So just, you know, three lawyers here looking at our legal system as a whole. Do you see a through line from American slavery to the present day?

KAMILAH  15:38 

Yes, absolutely. And that's some of our - that's the key findings that we made in the report, that the criminalization of African Americans started with the institution of slavery itself. And we've been criminalized as a community as a form of social control, particularly after emancipation, you know, what do you do with all these black people who are no longer deemed as property? What do you do with them? Do you integrate them fully into society? Or do you try to control them? Right? And so criminalization was one of those ways that local state and federal governments utilized to control us and to exploit our labor in similar ways that they did while we were enslaved. Criminalization itself is a badge and incident of slavery that has been weaponized against the African American community - with chain gains, with just the over policing of black life, like with vagrancy laws, but then in the more contemporary, right, you've had the over policing of black neighborhoods of black predominant schools, which has manifested to impact our children where we have even named, you know, the phenomenon, the school to prison pipeline. And so yes, you know, there is a through line from slavery to the black codes, and then the policies that define that, to mass incarceration, school to prison pipeline. Absolutely, criminalization has been weaponized.

ADAM  17:20 

Like Tony said, we really want to say hats off, because these recommendations you guys have are bold, they're comprehensive, you know, they're covering so many different areas. You guys do also have a straight up reparations plank, in chapter 12, where you talk about the wealth gap. We're just kind of wondering like, what do you see, let's say a couple of years from now, when this has been put into place, and, you know, the California Legislature has has adopted some of these things into law. What does the reparations process look like?

KAMILAH  17:49 

We've decided as a task force that California should compensate the descendant community for state specific harms. And we've already started to outline some of those harms, like housing discrimination, via redlining, or, you know, mass incarceration, houselessness. Those are some of the few harms that we've already started to identify and instruct our economic consultant team to start gathering data so that they can start crunching the numbers.

KAMILAH  18:20 

But essentially, this California African American agency, right would be responsible for confirming the eligibility for descendants. And then once eligibility is confirmed, right, they would also be responsible for dispensing compensation for the state specific harms. And then, of course, dispensing reparations not only in the form of compensation, but also in the other four forms of reparations under international law - that being rehabilitation - so that could look like free legal services, free social services, free health care related services; to restitution, so that accounts for stolen land stolen property stolen, intellectual property as well; to satisfaction, which is, you know, more symbolic forms of reparations; and lastly guarantees of non repetition.

TONY  19:09 

So some people say reparations should only be addressed at the national level, and that individual states and cities shouldn't mess with it. Right. Just stay out of it, because it's such an important issue. And that could potentially interfere with a national program. How do you respond to that?

KAMILAH  19:25 

I acknowledge the argument, but at the same time, I reject that argument. Because, you know, the federal government is primarily responsible. But you know, there's - we can't deny the history. We can't deny the facts and the facts and the history lead us to the correct assertion that local governments and state governments have also been complicit in perpetuating atrocities to the African American community. So what do you do? Do you leave them off the hook and just wait for the federal government? No, because we're still waiting...

ADAM  19:58 

Could be waiting a while. Yeah. What can our listeners do? If they want to help out? Right if they want to help your process and especially, you know, as we get closer to next year to help these, these proposals become law and and put this into concrete reality, what are some things that folks can do?

KAMILAH  20:15 

Yes, so folks can follow our website at oag.ca.gov/ab3121. You can also find me on Twitter at Kamilah V Moore. And you can also email the taskforce at reparationstaskforce@doj.ca.gov,

TONY  20:35 

Kamilah Moore, thank you for spending some time with us. We really, really appreciate it. We're grateful for all the wonderful work that you and the taskforce are doing. We applaud you, we support you, we are rooting for you. And if there's any way that we can be of help, please don't hesitate to call on us. But really just a wonderful time for us to have you in our presence and to be in your presence. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

ADAM  20:58 

Yeah, thank you for your time. And thank you for what you're doing for our society. Seriously, this is history. And it's very exciting.

KAMILAH  21:05 

Thank you so much for having me both.

TONY  21:07 

Absolutely. And it's very cool to see a young person you know, doing their thing and leading the charge. So go on with your bad self.

TONY  21:19 

That was a whole lot. Right?

ADAM  21:20 

Yeah. A lot going on.

TONY  21:22 

Yeah, yeah. Kamilah definitely brought some thunder and helped break it down. Certainly one issue we want to come back to is the question of eligibility. Right. So as Camila mentioned, there are two main approaches that the task force considered. One is the lineage approach, which requires someone to prove that they are a descendant of enslaved people. And the other is a so called race based approach, which would include all black Americans. Yeah. The task force in a very close hotly contested five to four vote went with the lineage approach. And there's some reasons rooted in the law that argue in favor of that particular approach. Adam, you want to break that down?

ADAM  22:05 

Sure. One thing she mentioned, as far as the lineage approach to who's eligible, is that it might be more likely to hold up in court, everything has to be completely race neutral. And anything that that mentions race is held to a super tough standard. So she basically said, I think it has a much better chance if it's based on, you know, people who are descendants of enslaved people rather than a particular race.

ADAM  22:30 

So when we were talking about who's going to be eligible for reparations, you know, one of the issues is proving up, right, how can people prove that they are descended from an enslaved person? And, you know, one thought we had was, because of our country's racist immigration laws? I'm pretty sure that prior to 1960, at least, there were very, very few African Americans whose ancestors emigrated here voluntarily, right, that there were some but but very, very small numbers. And, you know, the overwhelming majority of African Americans who have ancestors that were here before 1960, are descended from an enslaved person. Right.

TONY  23:09 

Absolutely. That that's my understanding as well. You know, I don't have the exact percentage, but but overwhelming majority, right.

ADAM  23:16 

So one way to do the eligibility would be to say, you know, if you can prove that much, if you can prove that you had people here before 1960, you're in, right - And that's a lot easier to prove, you know, than tracing the family tree so much further back, especially, like, you know, Camila was saying, there's this brick wall and, and proving is just so difficult.

TONY  23:40 

And truth be told, at least the way I feel about this, some might disagree. But even if, you know, a few handful of, quote unquote, other black folk who, you know, do not descend from enslaved people slip in and get get a check too, I wouldn't be mad about that.

ADAM  23:58 

Yeah, exactly. That's the other side of the debate, right, as a lot of people feel that all reparations should be given out more broadly. But yeah, it's not the biggest travesty in the world if some people who are facing racism today, get in on this program that is maybe intended for a more narrow group.

TONY  24:15 

But I still think, you know, to the point that Kamilah raised having a genealogy branch of the Freedmen's Bureau to assist people in you know, tracking that information, would be an important piece.

ADAM  24:28 

Yeah, there are so many amazing ideas in this list they have here and we don't know which ones are going to eventually make it to the legislature and get passed into law. But just for discussion, there's some really cool stuff in here. There's, they talk about a long term Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

TONY  24:45 

Someone like the South African model.

ADAM  24:47 

Yeah, exactly. To keep us honest, and examining our society publicly. They talk about free college tuition. They talk about a fund to support development of black owned businesses.

TONY  24:59 

Yes.

ADAM  25:00 

You know, compensation for families who were removed from their homes by state action, such as highway construction. And the list goes on and on and on - really, really great stuff.

TONY  25:10 

So there's there's a momentum, there's a movement, there are serious conversations taking place, not just in California, but across the country, right. So there are several other states that have either considered are in the process of considering some form of reparations plan. New York, Oregon, Maryland, New Jersey, and a few others. And at the local level, there are a handful of cities have also delved into this or are digging into it. Um, so there is there is a movement, there's a momentum that's, that's happening. And, you know, we're excited to be to be a part of that and to share this information with listeners so that we can move in that direction together.

ADAM  25:49 

Exactly. So that task force is going to be busy over the next year as Kamilah said, they're gonna be holding hearings, they're going to be putting this together into final form and bringing some recommendations to the desk of the California legislature for some laws to get going. Yeah, this is very exciting. And something we'll we'll definitely be keeping an eye on.

ADAM  26:12 

So Tony, what can our listeners do who want to help move this process forward?

TONY  26:15 

Well, the first thing people need to do is check out the report. You know, it's amazing, it reads like the ultimate history book for all of us, irrespective of background, irrespective of perspective, it's must read, right. And as Kamilah mentioned, there are ways to use the report as both an organizing tool and an educational tool. teachers out there, you know, include this in your curriculum. Or if you're part of a book club, you know, recommend this as one of the readings. If you're involved in a faith group, you know, bring this to your group.

ADAM  26:51 

Yeah, and this is a beautifully put together document, you know, they have pictures and illustrations and charts and it really is compelling. And it does read like a riveting book. It is not like the history books that we grew up studying in school, that's for sure.

TONY  27:04 

Definitely not definitely not. You know, the other thing to keep in mind, for those who want to get involved with some direct action is the taskforce will be holding a series of public hearings and community listening sessions in various parts of the state. Make sure that you're you know, you subscribe to the task force, email list, get, you know, get on their radar. So you know, when there's going to be something happening in your area.

ADAM  27:28 

Yeah, all great ideas. And we will have all this stuff in our show notes, folks, we're going to have the report itself, we'll have a link to this amazing document. And then also, as Tony said, links and ways that people can follow the task force and keep up on what's been going on and possibly get involved directly.

TONY  27:49 

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ADAM  27:57 

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TONY  28:05 

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