#1 - Pilot: The Case For Reparations Now

TRANSCRIPT

TONY  0:15  
Hi, I'm Tony Tolbert.

ADAM  0:17  
And I'm Adam Radinsky.

TONY  0:18  
Welcome to Pay The Tab, where we help build the case for reparations, one story at a time.

ADAM  0:23  
Each episode, we expose a story of racial injustice in America, then we explore creative ways to make it right.

TONY  0:29  
It's been long enough, it's time to pay the tab. Yeah, Adam, so we've been friends for just about 40 years. You know, we met as first year law students at Harvard. And we've been good friends ever since.

ADAM  0:46  
Yeah, it's amazing it's been that long. But history, man.

TONY  0:50  
It's pretty crazy. Yeah, I'm happy to have had a small hand in introducing you and your wife of 25 years, Kelly. 

ADAM  0:58  
That's right. Thank you for that.

TONY  1:00  
Thank you all for making it work. My track record is intact. So we're gonna be talking about reparations, right. That's what the tab is about, you know, but when we go back to what was happening when we first met in law school, that wasn't really part of the conversation, right?

ADAM  1:18  
Not at all. I know, there was a lot of conversation back in the 80s, about South Africa and the university, you know, divesting and the apartheid system and everything - but, yeah, not a lot of talk about the American apartheid system. That hadn't really gotten into gear yet.

TONY  1:34  
Exactly. Yeah. I honestly don't recall reparations, the term even being discussed when we were in school.

ADAM  1:40  
So Tony, now we are talking about reparations, and we're doing this podcast. So why reparations?

TONY  1:47  
Mainly, because we're still dealing with a bunch of crazy BS. You know, we think that over time that conditions would improve, that racial injustice would improve, but we're actually moving in the other direction, it seems like. You know, the huge gap between black and white family wealth is growing, not shrinking. Police are still killing black people on a regular basis. We've known for long, forever that this has been going on, but we're more privy to it now. We're more aware of it now. Because folks have cell phones and videos, right? You know, now we're seeing laws popping up all over that are trying to keep black folks from voting, right. So we're moving backwards, not forward. And so we thought reparations is a timely topic worthwhile for us to explore and really, you know, put a spotlight on.

ADAM  2:40  
There's this just complete history of brutality and discrimination. And, you know, as a country, we've never looked at it, never dealt with it, never really done anything, and just are in this huge denial. And what I like about looking at reparations is it forces us to take account, to reckon with what's happened, and what's still going on, like you say.

TONY  3:02  
And tell the truth about some of these things.

ADAM  3:04  
Exactly. You know, as a lawyer, I'm definitely attracted to ways that you can look at an injustice and what to do about it, right, how it can be dealt with, put a price tag on it when you need to, and do lots of other things. There's obviously a lot of precedent here, right? International law and what's been done in other countries, and even in this country in the past, you know, when there's major crimes against humanity, there's a price to be paid. And that's how it's supposed to work. Right?

TONY  3:34  
That is how it's supposed to work. Yeah. I mean, it does seem like what's transpired recently, has created this space has, you know, maybe disrupted some of what's happened before or just made people more aware. George Floyd's murder, protests, you know, all around the world, the effects of the pandemic, I think all of those have sort of come together to jumpstart a conversation, right, about ongoing racial injustice in how to make, how to repair that. 

ADAM  4:06  
Yeah. I'm really excited to get started on this project with you and start sharing some stories and spreading some truth to try to get some movement on this issue.

TONY  4:17  
Yeah, same here, you know, and I'm heartened or at least somewhat encouraged by the fact that cities across the country are exploring reparations programs. Politicians are jumping in to embrace reparations, something has changed, for sure.

ADAM  4:38  
We will start every episode with a story that needs to be told about racial injustice in America. Some of these things happened 100 years ago, and some are happening right now. But none of them has ever been properly dealt with, or even acknowledged. So that's the first half of every show.

TONY  4:55  
Then for the second part, we'll explore creative ways this problem could be made right. So we'll look at actual concrete things that our government can do to start repairing the damage. Upcoming episodes will include the 1921 Tulsa race massacre, and the saga of Bruce's Beach, where a city in southern California basically hijacked a black family's beachfront property and thriving resort. For every episode, we'll have special guests on the show who were there, or who are fighting for justice right now. These stories will show how the injustice in almost every aspect of American life is directly tied to our country's history, a history rooted in racism and white supremacy. 

TONY  5:33  
For this first episode, we thought it'd be good to share a little more about our personal backgrounds. Somewhere along the way, we realized that we had somewhat unique parallel experiences regarding race and racial issues. I don't know when I first learned from you that you grew up in, you know, predominantly Black spaces, neighborhoods and Black schools. That surprised me. So yeah, just curious, like what that was, like, for you.

ADAM  5:59  
I grew up on the west side of Chicago in a neighborhood that was mostly black and, you know, attended predominantly black schools all the way up through high school. So it definitely made me extra aware of race and racial dynamics all along. And, you know, as a, as a white kid in that situation growing up, you kind of have this this choice to make, right? It's like, which way do I play it? Am I going to try to fit in or not really bother and just sort of see what happens, right? So there's extra attention to how I'm walking, how I'm talking, am I going to try to learn all the handshakes or not. And so, you know, I kind of went back and forth, through my childhood. I remember in 1971, 4th grade, starting a brand new school and trying really hard with, putting these little buttons on my shirts, like Black Power buttons. 

TONY  6:56  
Oh, wow, seriously. 

ADAM  6:57  
You know, featuring Huey Newton and Angela Davis, were two that I definitely remember. 

TONY  7:03  
You were definitely trying hard, huh?

ADAM  7:06  
Trying hard, before there was the term allyship. I was trying to go there. And then, you know, in the middle school years, the sort of awkward years, I sort of opted for a more - I sort of did the opt out. Right, and sort of exaggerate, sometimes talking like extra white or, exaggerating the nerdiness -

TONY  7:28  
Wait, hold on, what does "talking extra white" even sound like?

ADAM  7:33  
Well, come on, you know what that sounds like! Right? I don't know.

TONY  7:35  
Okay. I get it. Now, was this while you were at school? Or were you that way at home also?

ADAM  7:40  
No, that would have been really weird. Okay, this is at school, there are multiple identities going on. Right. So yeah, so by the time of high school, I think I sort of gotten a little bit more comfortable with sort of like being myself and also playing things, different ways. Like I definitely grew out my afro. And I also discovered that at my high school, the cool people were not on the football team, they were in the band. And our band director was from Southern University, a historically black college, in the South and -

TONY  8:15  
In Louisiana. 

ADAM  8:16  
Exactly. And the marching band was all about dancing. I was not a dancer, you know, there was a lot of, let's just say scrutiny. The only other white kid in the marching band was a drummer, and they didn't have to dance. They were just playing drums.

TONY  8:29  
And just trying to get a feel for it. How many people are in the band roughly? 

ADAM  8:34  
About 100.

TONY  8:35  
Wow. And there was you and one other white kid in the room? 

ADAM  8:38  
Yeah. But I was the only white person dancing - is the important part of this. So let's just say I did a lot of practicing in the privacy of my bedroom, in between rehearsals with the band. Still didn't really help. 

ADAM  8:50  
And yeah, like you say, it was interesting, kind of recently to realize that we had, a sort of parallel experience with you growing up the same age out here on the west coast. So yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about that.

TONY  9:06  
Yeah. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, a suburb just north of LA. And we were one of two black families for blocks and miles around. Yeah, it was us. You know, my two sisters, the three of us went to an elementary school that had over 900 students. And some years like we were literally, three of a handful of black students in the whole school. I was always the only black kid in my class. You know, and that just created a vibe or a dynamic that could be tricky to navigate. Everyone wants as a kid wants to try to fit in and, you know, be like other kids and we realized early on that, that wasn't the case. Right. And, and you know, that was cool, our parents did a really good job of instilling in us a sense of  history and pride in heritage. And also, you know, let us know that there were some times we'd have to, you know, fight back, literally and figuratively, I stuttered as a kid too, and still stutter sometimes. So that was awkward. And so I just, you know, was quiet, kind of kept to myself, played sports, and just tried to do me the best that I could.

TONY  10:32  
Fast forward to high school, I worked at a local pharmacy, and part of my job entailed dropping off prescriptions to folks up in the Hollywood Hills, you know, really rich part of town. And on a regular basis, making my rounds I'd get stopped, you know, stopped by the by the cops. And every single time without fail, first question, what are you doing in this neighborhood? Very, very first question. And I'm not exaggerating when I say every single time, you know, it wasn't stopped for making an illegal turn, or expired registration tags, or busted tailpipe or speeding. None of that, never got a ticket, but constantly stopped. And it was an early enough introduction to interaction with police. It made me recognize at an early age that race was a powerful thing. I knew it before. But race and particularly with respect to interacting with police was tricky. Right. And, yeah, that was so many years ago, but it was very, very vivid, just being stopped and being made to feel that like I didn't, didn't belong there. Right. I think that was the express intent of that question. You know, what are you doing in this neighborhood?

ADAM  12:00  
So in future episodes, we're going to take you through some stories about racial injustice, and talking about reparations. For this first episode, we want to do something a little different and give you an introduction to what reparations is. We have the perfect guest for that, on this episode, Maureen Simmons. She is a key architect of a new law in the state of California. California recently became the first state in America to set up a task force to study possible reparations and make recommendations. We'll see from talking with Maureen how reparations is a truly national issue with a great deal of urgency.

TONY  12:35  
So we're thrilled to be joined today by Maureen Simmons. As a UC Berkeley student and intern in the State Assembly, she was the vision for the bill and played a pivotal role in bringing it to life. Today, Maureen will break down reparations for us the arguments for reparations and some of the pushback against them, who should receive them and a whole lot more. A key player in the national reparations movement, Maureen has advised Ice Cube on his Contract With Black America platform. And she's consulted other states on their reparations plans. So we're very excited about digging into this conversation with her. Maureen Simmons, thank you for joining us today to help kick off Pay The Tab. Welcome. 

MAUREEN  13:12  
Well, thank you so much, Tony and Adam, for having me today on pay the tab. It's truly an honor.

TONY  13:17  
So Maureen, what are reparations?

MAUREEN  13:20  
So when I think about reparations for me in the context of America, it's making amends or atonement for the generations of physical, emotional, psychological, and financial harm that's been inflicted on the descendants of chattel slavery. To me, it takes on many forms, we're talking about financial. We look at the hundreds of years of labor that slaves here in America gave to this country - were forced to, not really gave, but were forced to work and not receive any compensation for that. We know the economy of America was built largely on the work of the free labor of slaves. So for me, it's reparative justice. Reparative Justice is repairing the breach repairing the injustices that happened to black people here in America.

TONY  14:17  
You know, I think it's fair to say that most people would agree that slavery was one horrific institution, and that enslaved people were harmed as a result of it. Right. But some critics argue that what's happened since the end of slavery shouldn't be included in the reparations conversation. So Maureen, how do you respond to that?

MAUREEN  14:35  
Well if we look at what happens even in our contemporary times, and there's still a lot of consequences that African Americans have as a result of slavery, even to this day, financial, the financial impact of slavery has been a deficit for Black Americans. We know that generationally white wealth was largely built on slavery, right? That is historical, that is a fact. And because of that fact, in order to close that economic wealth gap, we need to have some sort of reparative justice. And that's where reparations would come in. 

TONY  15:12  
What other forms of reparations would be included in your definition of reparative justice?

MAUREEN  15:17  
If we look at health care, if we look at education, if we look at home ownership, we look at employment - on every level, we notice that African Americans are somewhere near the bottom of that rung. In order for us to repair that, we have to repair it at every level of each of those different parts. And that's a big undertaking. And I would imagine that that's why we haven't seen reparations happen in America, because it's not just about payment.

ADAM  15:43  
I have a question for you, Maureen, about who should get reparations, how we should define that group. Some say payments should only go to the descendants of enslaved people in America. How did that play out in this bill? And what are your thoughts?

MAUREEN  15:56  
That's certainly the intention of the bill is that it is to right the wrongs for those who suffered slavery under slavery in California, when California was a free state. And the only ones who have that justice claim during the time period that we are targeting in the bill, are African American descendants of slaves. No one else has a justice claim for that particular issue. No other group in America has a justice claim for chattel slavery. No other group in America has a justice claim for Jim Crow, in the ways that we have. No other group has a justice claim for mass incarceration, redlining. So when we look at all of the consequences, we know who we're talking about,

ADAM  16:44  
Right. And another big form of pushback we hear a lot of is, this is so complicated financially. And, you know, how do we come up with dollar amounts for that component, right, for the financial component? And, you know, the dollar amounts, if you do start rolling up your sleeves and doing the math are incredibly large. And how is that going to be paid for? So the kind of the twin arguments of it's too complicated, and it's too expensive - how do you respond to that?

MAUREEN  17:14  
Well, let's do some math. Approximately 12 to 15 million Africans were loaded on the bellies of ships, and transported, and forced into labor for not one year, two years or three years. But several hundreds of years, generations of people. I know your background as an attorney understands that if you take a client into court, and they're looking and seeking for compensatory damages, you're looking at repairing them and trying to make them whole. Understanding that you're never able to make them fully whole. But what your goal is, is to say what was lost? What was the damage done? And how do we attempt to repair that? So if we look at the Case for Reparations, if we were to say that right, if we're making the Case for Reparations, and we were in Court arguing this, we would say that 12 to 15 million people had their lives stolen, tradition, stolen, identity stolen, were kidnapped, were forced into labor. They were starved, were beaten, were brutalized, terrorized. Had their languages stolen. How do you repay that? And so while they say it's a large price, it is! You can't build a country, a wealth on the backs of people and think that that's a $20 payoff per person, because that economic engine is still going. America's economic engine is still going. The tab is still accumulating. And at some point, you have to pay the tab.

ADAM  18:57  
Exactly. I always found that argument funny, because in the legal system, you know, everyday judges and juries are doing tons of speculation, guessing, coming up with dollar amounts on somebody's damage that they only have a bit of information about. And in civil cases, there's never really a problem doing that. And that's like you say that's the American legal system. So I do find it curious that on this one subject, it's like, oh, wait, we can't speculate - how would we ever come up with a dollar amount?

MAUREEN  19:25  
Yeah, well, and Tony, Adam, that's because we're still in a system, a web if you will, of discrimination. Truly being sorry for slavery and the damage that has been done that continues to be done, right now in this country is to make amends for that, but it's also to set the record straight. And setting the record straight means that you go back and you say, Listen, we can't repair 400 years of labor. Those people they don't live anymore, but their descendants are here. And the descendants still have challenges that are results of the hundreds of years, the generations of wrongdoing. And so how do we make it right in 2021? You make it right in 2021 with the descendants, because we know the original, you know, slaves, they're gone. And the original slave masters are gone. But the descendants of the slave masters still benefit. The descendants of the slave children are still suffering.

ADAM  20:36  
We want to talk a bit about the bill, how did you first get involved in that project? Because it sounds like such a big and, you know, exciting project. How did that come about?

MAUREEN  20:47  
They asked, What do you want out of this internship, I just said, You know what I want to - I'm studying reparations. And I would like to write some sort of legislation around reparations. I didn't think we'd have a bill at the end, because it was only an eight week internship. But I said that, and they said, go for it. I don't think they thought I would have a bill at the end. I remember, reaching out to Dr. Sandy Darrity. Just because I said he's an expert. I reached out to Antonio Moore and said he's an expert. My background in human resources came in handy because I knew how to pull things together really fast. And so what was an eight-week internship turned into history. And I never would have imagined that.

ADAM  21:38  
So you had this idea based on your studies and inspiration, what you wanted to do. So what was the process of the bill kind of moving forward? And what was your role in that?

MAUREEN  21:48  
Yeah, so one of the first things that I began to do was make the California connection, because it wasn't enough to just have a bill about reparations, if it's going to be passed in California. There had to be a California connection. One thing I found in particular, there was a document that traced slavery in California. And that's when I saw the connection. And it talked about California being a free state. But it gave me all of these really great court cases of, of black Americans who came to California free, and were enslaved when they got here and were robbed of their land, robbed of their money, disconnected from their families. I found one story of a gentleman who had about $1,400, when he came to California from Mississippi, and when he got here with his family, that $1,400 was taken and he was enslaved by a legislator in California at that time. It was I forgot one of the counties Solano or one of the counties, but this person served in government and he enslaved this black man, took his money, which - $1,400 back in 1852, that was a lot of money, you know, and that's when it broke for me. And I kept it you know, once I found that information, I knew which counties were complicit, I begin to know which people in California and then I started to trace that. And once I had that, I went back to Dr. Weber. And I said, this is how California participated. We knew historically, there have been many articles that were out there. But for me, you know, actually finding documents where we knew the names of people. And then the and we connected that to research that the legislative director had worked on with insurance companies. And we started to look at the insurance documents and connect the stories.

ADAM  23:45  
Did you come upon any documents or records from way back that sort of illustrated at the human level, you know, what was going on? And what kind of helped to bring some of this together for what was going on in California?

MAUREEN  23:57  
They were insurance documents, and they would just list what the first name and the age and the occupation if we can even call it an occupation. And it was just awful. Because I would see, you know, one in particular, I remember still looking at it, dutifully handwritten, but it said Lucy, six years old. And I remember that she was a house slave. And gut wrenching that six years old, like what are most of us doing at six years old? Where are we at six, right? You're playing? You're being a child. You're in school, you're living - but this six year old, was a slave in someone's house, so much so that they insured her. And, and I remember we all sat in the office that day and we were our hearts were heavy. You know? And it was, documents like that never many more. But you know, the others, they're 14 or nine and just their first name, nothing else to identify them. And I would sit there and try to imagine, who was Lucy? What was Lucy's life like? And I felt that I wrote ACR 130 for Lucy.

ADAM  25:22  
So these are insurance policies where they were listing the property that was insured, right. Yeah, that's what we're talking about.

TONY  25:29  
That's heartbreaking.

MAUREEN  25:30  
Yeah. In California,

TONY  25:31  
That is heartbreaking. And how many of us knew that? Right? Yeah. In all of your schooling, had you ever heard that? Ever seen that? Right? 

MAUREEN  25:40  
No. And that's the part like, you know, when we talk about the narrative of reparations, there, it's not ever discussed on a human level.

ADAM  25:50  
Maureen, we see that the California law includes educating the public about the history as a key part of reparations. Why is education so important here?

MAUREEN  26:00  
Because some people are really disconnected from African American history in this country. They're really disconnected from how brutal slavery really was, and how it continues through systemic racism and discrimination that are in our institutions. And unless you educate on why reparations is necessary, you would have people that it I believe, it would cause even more of a divide, because there would be a lack of awareness of why. So what this task force will do is it will take specific cases like that, but it will also look more globally at Black families and economic wealth in California for black families and be able to study that.

ADAM  26:48  
So if you could wave your magic wand and have this taskforce make the best possible recommendations for reparations, what would they be?

MAUREEN  26:56  
In California, blacks comprise about 5% of the state. And we make up 26% of the prison population. So for me reparations would be correcting mass incarceration issues here in California, really taking a look at why we represent 26% of the prison population. Right? It would also, many cities and counties in California already offer free education. That would be one thing that Dr. Weber, who was an educator, wanted, she wanted education to be accessible, whether that's free education for African Americans in California, or really next to free. But that was for her, that was even more, you know, better than money. We had to do some convincing with Dr. Weber, that that wouldn't close the economic with wealth gap. But she's very adamant that education was a piece of that. 

MAUREEN  27:55  
As well, we talked about homeownership, right. So whether we would make homeownership much more accessible and affordable, if that's through bonds, if that's through different lending mechanisms that would make it much more affordable for African Americans to own homes. And then closing the economic wealth gap would have to mean some sort of compensation, whether that's compensation through tax breaks that, that's one form, and whether that's through some form of bonds, but it will take on a lot of different faces. So for me, it would be education, it would be home ownership, it would be some sort of compensation. And then, of course, as I pointed out, ensuring health care.

TONY  28:46  
So Maureen, we know that some people don't even want to touch reparations, or acknowledge our country's racist history. Why do you think some folks just can't go there?

MAUREEN  28:56  
Because people, they want it to go away. They just want to say, let's just move on, let's just keep everything the way that it is. Let's not upset anything, ruffle any feathers. Move on.

ADAM  29:09  
Right, and how can we move on when we haven't done the thing yet? 

MAUREEN  29:13  
Yeah, yeah. Well, people still want to move on. 

ADAM  29:15  
You have to do something before you move on.

MAUREEN  29:19  
(Laughs.) They still want to move on.

ADAM  29:20  
Do you have any words to our listeners for what they can do if they want to get involved? I mean, your story is kind of remarkable for what you were able to achieve, as as one person getting involved in something you cared about, but obviously, there are things other people can do as well. What would you say to our listeners who may be sparked with some interest in this topic?

MAUREEN  29:39  
For someone else who wants to get involved? I would say you know, be unafraid to step out, especially if we're talking about reparations, in particular, right on pay the tab. How do you get involved? Don't be silent about it. Call your legislators you know if you're listening to this podcast and anything that's been said resonates with you, don't let that die - do something, write an email, write a letter, make a phone call. 

TONY  30:08  
Well, Maureen, you are such an inspiring person. And I know you hear that a lot. So it's probably getting old and cliche, but let me jump on the bandwagon. You are really just a wonderful powerful example of what we can do in our individual capacities to transform the society, to make it work better for more people. So I applaud you for that and really can't think of any more perfect guest that we could have to kick off Pay The Tab.

ADAM  30:35  
Yeah, we really thank you for giving us some of your time. And we thank you on behalf of the population for what you've done for California and for the national dialogue. It's pretty incredible. How can our listeners reach you or follow you on social and so forth?

MAUREEN  30:51  
Social media. I am ms_esq on Instagram. On Twitter, I am the MO Chronicles. Do you want to follow my political ramblings?

TONY  31:07  
Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you, Maureen, really can't thank you enough. One last question for you. What time is it?

MAUREEN  31:13  
What time is it? It's 12:18.

TONY  31:17  
I'll ask you again. What time is it?

MAUREEN  31:25  
It's time to pay the tab!

TONY  31:27  
Right on.  Absolutely. 

MAUREEN  31:30  
It took me a minute. 

TONY  31:32  
That's okay. That's okay. 

TONY  31:38  
Pretty wild, some of what Maureen just talked to us about, right? Particularly, about how slavery existed in California, which was somewhat news to me, frankly. 

ADAM  31:51  
Yeah. Never heard about California before.

TONY  31:54  
I went to school all the way through college in California, and never read that in any history book, never learned about the Fugitive Slave acts. These were laws that allowed for the capture and return of runaway enslaved people, even after they had entered into a so-called free state like California. You know, and that set up this cottage industry of bounty hunters who legally snatched folks up from free states, stole their money, stole their land, broke up families, all under the cover of law, right, and the courts upheld these.

ADAM  32:35  
Right. And as Maureen describes, the government had a very active role throughout all this, the federal government, the state governments, as we heard from her, some legislators within the state of California, there's documentation. So it really goes to every level. And that's important when we talk about reparations, when we talk about, you know, paying the tab, and who's responsible for this, it is not just those bounty hunters, but it's the government, the people, the entire country made that possible. White people say, Well, my ancestors didn't do anything wrong. They weren't even in this country during slavery. And, they certainly didn't own slaves. So, you know, why should I have to pay for it? It's like, it's sort of a classic American way of talking about not wanting to pay for things, but I know, like, a lot of what Maureen said, really resonates that, this is not about individual people. This is not about, your family or my family. It's about the whole country. And when the whole country does some, horrendous wrongs then we need to deal with it as a country, right? We need to do it collectively.

TONY  33:45  
Absolutely. Right. I mean, and it can't be denied that this country's wealth was literally built on the backs of black bodies. So to act like, that just sort of happened, or no one's responsible, or let's just kind of move on from here like, well, no, no, we can't do that. You can't reap the benefits of chattels, of enslaved labor, and then act like, okay, we're just gonna call it even and start from scratch. It doesn't work that way.

ADAM  34:20  
This task force has already started meeting. I saw they've held some early meetings and have been chosen and impaneled. And it's pretty exciting, to see that it sounds like they have a pretty broad mandate in what they're going to look at and can make, yeah, creative recommendations. And we know California has a proud history of leading the way on some issues that, often will be the first state to do something that some other states kind of shake their heads at. And then a few years later, they're all doing it. Right.

TONY  34:54  
Well, we're hoping that this sets the tone for other states to follow, right? 

ADAM  34:59  
For sure.

ADAM  35:06  
Hey everybody. Thanks for joining us. We hope you enjoyed our first show.

TONY  35:09  
We've got some great stories to share with you in upcoming episodes. Please subscribe to our podcast and tell your family and friends to check us out.

ADAM  35:15  
And remember, reparations will only happen if enough of us mobilize to push this conversation forward.

TONY  35:21  
Thanks for joining Pay The Tab!