#6 - The Tulsa Race Massacre pt. 2: A Long Road To Justice

TRANSCRIPT

ADAM  0:37 

So if you haven't already, please check out part one of our Tulsa story where we lay out what happened back in 1921, and the government's role in all of the atrocities. In this part two, we're going to talk about reparations for the Tulsa massacre. This damage was so massive, how do we even get a handle on what reparations should look like? Well, a group called justice for Greenwood has done exactly that they've done the heavy lifting all the hard work of breaking it down and putting it on paper. And they've actually filed a lawsuit that's in the courts of Oklahoma right now. This is a lawsuit for reparations from the government for the Tulsa massacre.

TONY  1:12 

So today, we're gonna find out about that case and the latest developments in it. Also, on the topic of reparations, we're gonna dig into the struggle to uncover possible mass graves, and discuss the controversy over the numbers of people that were killed in the massacre. We're really grateful to have with us today, three guests. Christie Williams, who's a local Tulsa activist and serves on the mass graves commission down there, Professor Eric Miller, who is a reparation scholar and CO counsel on the big reparations case that we're going to be talking about. And we are over the moon to have with us today, Mr. Hughes, Van Ellis, one of the three remaining survivors from the massacre, he's going to join us and share with us his experience of living through the massacre, and the last 100 plus years of the aftermath and all that's come with it.

ADAM  2:00 

So for this part two, we're going to talk about reparations for the Tulsa race massacre. We always like to start this part with looking at what's been done so far, and kind of taking it from there. So in Tulsa, you know, what has the city or the state done in terms of reparations for the massacre in the last 101 years?

TONY  2:19 

What have they done?

ADAM  2:20 

Yeah, the short answer is absolutely nothing. You know, there's been decades of BS, a lot of denial, and really just a big nothing.

TONY  2:29 

Not only has there been nothing done to repair the damage, the city and state have actually engaged in practices that continued the harms. Right? So case in point was running a highway right through the heart of Greenwood. Despite, you know, other alternative viable alternatives, the percentage of black homeownership has declined drastically. Since the heyday of the Greenwood community, there's a vast disparity in health outcomes for black residents of Tulsa versus white residents, neighborhood schools in that community have been severely underfunded. And there have been segregated hiring practices for public jobs. So a host of harms that have continued from 1921 to the present day.

ADAM  3:14 

Yeah, so as far as reparations here, the city's biggest claim to fame and really the one thing they talk about is this charity called Greenwood Rising, which has raised tens of millions of dollars from well meaning donors. And basically what they've done is they built a museum, and they have some displays about what happened and stuff. But the bottom line is no money is going to any survivors or descendants of survivors out of this charity.

TONY  3:39 

So another area where the city of Tulsa claims it's been doing the right thing is searching for possible mass graves of the massacre victims.

ADAM  3:49 

Yeah, it's crazy when we hear these accounts of what was done during the massacre with the dead people's bodies. There are all these eyewitness accounts of fast, efficient, organized operations to quickly gather up dead bodies. They were throwing them in ditches, there's one account of throwing a bunch of them in the river, right. Just horrifying stuff that clearly shows that this was very planned and organized. But also, it leaves open the question of, you know, how many people are we talking about? And there's been this growing discussion about mass graves. That's part of what the city sort of been forced to, to take a look at.

TONY  4:27 

Yeah. And, you know, notwithstanding the growing evidence of large numbers of folks who were killed in the massacre, the city has continued to deny, and avoid that question.  Right from 1921 until now. They have established a mass graves commission, presumably to take a look at this and really to investigate it. Yeah.

ADAM  4:47 

Watch out when you hear the word commission.

TONY  4:48 

Yeah, exactly. Right. We know what that that is, especially when it's the folks who perpetrated the crime who are establishing the commission. But we're joined today by Kristi Williams, who's a local Tulsa activist with deep ties to the massacre. She serves on the mass graves public oversight committee, and she's also the descendant of a survivor of the massacre. Her great aunt Janie was on a secret date at the Dreamland Theater when the massacre broke out. She fled on foot to a town several miles away, never to return to Tulsa. So here's Kristi sharing her insights regarding the drastic undercounting of the numbers of people who were killed in the massacre. And the city of Tulsa has continued failure to properly investigate it.

KRISTI  5:28 

They made a decision that says that they're not going to investigate any women or children. They're just looking for these 18 men. That was documented. And they're also looking at the Tulsa Tribune newspaper at the time and said we had 36 reported deaths from the massacre. And I have an issue with the scientists who are making a decision to use the racist newspaper written by the racist city of the people who worked to create this massacre. And you're taking their word for it. I just don't know how you come up with this thing, because there were women and children who were also in the massacre who came up missing.

KRISTI  6:17 

Right, you have 4,000 people unaccounted for, right? So why would you not investigate the women and the children? And why are you going to stop at 18 males. And I just can't believe that you would have scientists who will work on a project like this a very important sacred project like this, and you that do everything you can do to make sure that you have found these victims of the massacre. Again, it just goes back to we are asking the same entity who helped orchestrate this massacre to investigate itself. What gets me is National Geographic, Dr. Fred Hybird. Now this man, he is a is a world renowned archaeologist who worked on Jesus's tomb. And they the city of Tulsa turned them down. How do you turn down someone who worked on Jesus's tomb? Right? So that means that you don't want to find, right, what we're really looking for? Yeah, that's what that means. So you turn down National Geographic, who offered the funding? And all the state of the art equipment...

ADAM  7:39 

Sounds like they're in a hurry to close up shop there. Yes.

TONY  7:44 

Sounds like a continuation of the cover up that that happened. It's been happening. Yeah,

ADAM  7:50 

I wanted to ask you about something you just said about 4,000 people being unaccounted for, because you're obviously up to the minute on the status of what's going on there. So as we understand it, you know, the official numbers of how many people lost their lives in the massacre are different, right? There's some, like you say, some of the official numbers are in the dozens. But then, you know, some people say up to several hundred people. But it sounds like of the many people such as your great aunt who fled, most of those people have been accounted for eventually, right, the people who are alive and survived. So are you saying that there are still possibly up to 4,000 people who were not accounted for in any way?

KRISTI  8:31 

Absolutely. There are...  The research shows that there are newspaper articles all across the country of people asking, of putting ads out. Have you seen so-and-so this person was missing in the massacre? Those are stories that went out in black newspapers across the country after the massacre. So, yeah, we ave four thousand people who are unaccounted for. So how do you begin to this process to look for them? And especially when you have a whole science team, who don't want to look for only but 18 men, like, Come on this is ridiculous. And so this is why it's important that the national spotlight stays on Tulsa. Because that's the only way that this city will do right is when the spotlight is shown. Because the city does not want to look bad in the eyes of the world. And so it's just really important that we do that. And I always say, Greenwood belongs to every black person in this country, whether you came here or not. We all owe it to those ancestors of Greenwood to stay on for them just by sharing our story despite telling people what's going on here.

ADAM  9:58 

And we also talked to Eric Miller, the law professor who we met last time, about the coverup and about the city's literal coverup of evidence that there might be mass graves here.

ERIC  10:09 

The city formed a Graves Commission to try and uncover the mass burial. There's claims that there's mass grave sites around the city. But immediately bodies were discovered. The city then halted the forensic studies and reburied them. And so they literally covered up evidence of what seems to be crimes that the city itself committed. And this is a standard thing over and over again. Whenever embarrassing facts come to light, the various defendants do things to suppress, cover up, repress re harm and reinjure. And they're still doing it right now.

ADAM  11:07 

So for this part of the show, we always like to look at what are some creative ideas on how reparations could be made, what wrongs have been done here, and what can be done about it. So Tony, we're going to talk about what this would look like to pay the tab for the Tulsa race massacre. Right. So the main event as far as reparations for black Tulsa is concerned is definitely this lawsuit brought by Justice for Greenwood. They filed it in 2020. And they used a legal theory that has not really been used before in the area of reparations, and it's called public nuisance. So they sued a number of specific agencies that are still going today: the city of Tulsa, the sheriff, the Chamber of Commerce, the National Guard, and it lays out in their lawsuit what these agencies did to cause the massacre, right. So unlike previous cases for reparations in Tulsa, this is not about individuals being harmed. This is about harms to the entire community that have been ongoing now for more than 100 years. And so we talked to Eric about this aspect of the case and how the theory was designed.

ERIC  12:07 

In destroying this thriving African American neighborhood. They destroyed schools, hospitals, theaters, hotels, and perpetuated system of racial oppression. I actually think it's better described as race based terrorism for the next 100 years. And if you were to go to Greenwood in North Tulsa today, you'd see that immediately you crossed the boundary into North Tulsa, the nature of the of the town of Tulsa changes. And what we're essentially seeking is, is to abate that means to stop the harms that the city, the Chamber of Commerce and other defendants are continuing are continuing to perpetuate residents. So that includes things like, you know, North Tulsa is historically a food desert. North Tulsa is a healthcare desert. So if you get ill in North Tulsa, and you can go to hospital, you have to wait for the ambulance to come out to you and then wait as it takes you to a hospital elsewhere in Tulsa, the city and the Chamber of Commerce as well. And the other defendants participated in fragmenting the community. So undermining its social and political capital by running freeways through the middle of the of the community by creating environmental blight. So they've done a whole bunch of things that have undermined the health, safety and security of the community. And what we're asking them to do is to undo that.

TONY  13:54 

The lawsuit also asked the court to order the government to make specific reparations to black Tulsa. Justice for Greenwood has laid out some really dynamic, creative ideas for how these harms can be repaired. One is the construction of a new hospital with employment priority for residents of Greenwood. You may recall that the hospital that was in that neighborhood was burned down in the massacre. So this is one reparation that directly ties to the harm that was created. Another demand is for the creation of a college scholarship program for Descendants of the massacre. In this, you know directly counters the underfunding of schools in Greenwood that's taken place for over the last 100 plus years. Another creative part of the complaint, asked for priority and awarding of city contracts to black residents of Tulsa. For years black Tulsans have been excluded from being awarded government contracts so this would go some ways towards repairing that damage.

ADAM  14:58 

One thing that's conspicuously not in the lawsuit is a request for cash money for all the harms from the massacre. And that's specifically because under the public nuisance theory, you can't ask the court for money, and it really wasn't available to them. But on our on our list of reparations for Tulsa, obviously, you would need to include some pretty massive compensation for all these, like we've been talking about all these allegations of harm.

TONY  15:23 

Yes.

TONY  15:28 

So a big development in this case, folks. Yeah, there's good news and bad news. In August of 2022, the court came down with a ruling right in the midst of us working on this episode. So podcasts are funny, right, you know,

ADAM  15:43 

Unpredictable.

TONY  15:44 

unpredictable, right, because real life is happening, you're headed in one direction, and then you get thrown a curveball and put you in another direction. So the good news is that the case that Adam described can continue, it can move forward. The other news, unfortunately, the case has been narrowed substantially in terms of its scope, both regarding who can pursue a claim, but also the types of claims that can be pursued. So the court ruled that the only folks who have a justice claim in this instance are the three remaining survivors of the massacre. And the claims can only relate to harm stemming directly from the massacre itself to those individuals - and not later harm to the community.

TONY  16:26 

But notwithstanding that, you know, kudos to Damario Soloman Simmons and Justice for Greenwood for continuing this fight, pushing this through the court system not giving up. And it's a victory to get as far as they got right. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that 100 Years went by where there was no, you know, no court success, right. So to advance this far, and to generate the type of publicity that's been generated. That's major.

ADAM  16:53 

Yeah, this is a huge victory actually. We are only left now with the three individual plaintiffs, the three survivors. But the judge has said that this case now goes to discovery and potential trial. And that has not happened before. In the case of Tulsa, these three survivors, one of whom we're going to talk to today, you know, will have their day in court. That's a huge deal.

TONY  17:15 

Another key point about the lawsuit is that it also serves as a really amazing blueprint for actually making reparations, right. And almost irrespective of what the ultimate outcome is on the case, the complaint itself, the lawsuit itself, you know, can stand for other organizations, other cities, other folks that are looking for reparations, it just lays it out in suit, very thoughtful, very thorough, very creative, very innovative. So that's a victory in and of itself.

ADAM  17:45 

But this court order does remind us of an ongoing problem that we always have with the US legal system, right? It's when you're looking for reparations for black Americans, this is a very, very tough road to go through the courts. The road has signs on the side of the road, saying things like do not enter, detour, yield, you know, stop. There's all kinds of of obstacles, our legal system was not designed or intended to give justice. It was founded on the principle of protecting rich people's property, which used to mean other human beings, and still is extremely unfair and one sided. And so it's tough. Right?

TONY  18:26 

Absolutely. You know, and it, just points to, a dynamic that for actual remedies and reparations to take place on the local or national level, you know, we need to apply political pressure, for sure. Right. You know, the court system is one route, but that can't be the only route, right? There needs to be. legislation needs to be a mobilization of folks being willing to stand up and band together.

ADAM  18:57 

So we have a very special guest for this episode. His name is Hughes Van Ellis. He's 101 years old, and he's one of only three living survivors of the Tulsa massacre. He's a plaintiff in that reparations lawsuit that's going on in court right now. In this interview, you'll hear a couple times that Mr. Ellis's daughter Muriel jumps into the conversation and she shares some deep wisdom of her own.

TONY  19:20 

So we're thrilled to have with us today Mr. Hughes vanellus, who's known to many as Uncle read today. So Mr. Ellis, thank you so much for joining us today on pay the tap and welcome. Okay, so you you've said we live with the massacre every day. Right? And the thought of what Greenwood was and what it could have been that so if you could share with us what was special about Greenwood and what could it have been?

HVE  19:47 

What was special about it? Some people built that from scratch. We had built a city of our own. We had a School, we had hospitals, we had businesses, we had tailors - we had a police department. Somewhere notice somebody didn't like it, and decided to burn it down. Dropped bombs on the area. Burned down homes... My father, man got us out of there. Just escaped. Never forget about it. We didn't have an automobile, just horse and wagon. We were sharecroppers. We'd go from town to town, looking for work. So we were there in Tulsa. And that's what happened.

TONY  20:41 

Wow. If the massacre hadn't happened, if Greenwood hadn't been burned down, what do you think it would have been today?

HVE  20:49 

It would've been, would have had better colleges, better schools, better jobs. We wold've had. Which we didn't get.

ADAM  20:59 

Mr. Ellis, we know that you served in the Army during World War Two and that you are a combat veteran. And you've said you've said that in the ships, on your way overseas, that the black soldiers it was completely segregated, right. And black soldiers had to stay below-decks. In the hull of the ship.

HVE  21:18 

We stayed in the hull of the ship. Yes.

ADAM  21:21 

Yeah so and then when you came back from serving your country, you were denied the GI benefits.

HVE  21:26 

Right.

ADAM  21:27 

So how did those experiences affect you? And how did that affect your life?

HVE  21:31 

It's just... it's bad.  or just you had to just work day and night to overcome that, take care of family. If they'd have given me something for that, it wouldn't have been as hard. So I managed to raise a family and, and put some kids in school. I worked hard day and night. Weekends. Yeah, worked on Saturdays cutting yards. On Sundays, clean buildings.

ADAM  22:05 

Yeah. And I know you've talked a little bit about, you know, risking your life serving your country to supposedly fight for freedom, right and coming home and...

HVE  22:12 

I had to go defend my country after I got bombed in my own country. I put my life on the line. I didn't... I was drafted. Do this. Not my choice.

MURIEL  22:31 

So that's a good comparison. Because you were overseas, serving for your country and bombing there. But then you come back home, in your own country, and your own people are bombing you, because you want and you have economic development. So that is just ridiculous. It's unconscionable. You live in this country, you helped build this country. You're providing economic development to this country. But because of your color...? You can't do that?

TONY  23:03 

You've said that you would live to 130. If that's what it takes to see justice done.

TONY  23:08 

That's to see justice done. Right.

TONY  23:12 

And what would that be for you? What would that look like to have justice for you and your family and other people that were...

HVE  23:19 

Good schools. Good jobs. You could sit down, have a dinner every now and then. A nice dinner,. You could sit down like other people do. That's what it would look like for me. And I'm looking forward to see that.

TONY  23:37 

Yep. So are we. And before you turn 130? Let's let's see if we can make that happen before then.

HVE  23:44 

It's gonna happen.

TONY  23:45 

Yes, sir. So you're hopeful you're optimistic? You're hopeful?

HVE  23:49 

Yes. You have to keep hope. So that's what I do.

TONY  23:55 

And for people who say well it's too late now. You know, that was that was too long ago. We just need to move on. What do you say to them?

HVE  24:05 

Well they better wake up. It's not too late. Never. It's not ever too late.

TONY  24:12 

Never too late to do the right thing.

HVE  24:14 

It's never too late. And we got to fight to the finish.

TONY  24:21 

That's awesome.

HVE  24:22 

We're not gonna stop. We're gonna try to make it a better life for black people. We need it.

ADAM  24:33 

Your sister Viola Fletcher has said that, you know she's lived through the massacre every day like what you were saying. And you know, our country may forget this history, but she says she cannot. So what do you think about that?

HVE  24:46 

She sits up and sleeps. She don't lay down in no bed. She's ready for, something may happen. She's ready to go.

TONY  24:54 

And she doesn't sleep because of nightmares from the massacre?

HVE  24:59 

She sits up in the chair and sleeps. She don't go to bed.

TONY  25:04 

100 years later

HVE  25:05 

101 years later. That makes me think. Yeah. That impacts me very much.

TONY  25:13 

To think that maybe something like that could happen again.

HVE  25:18 

Yeah, they happen. Things happen.

TONY  25:21 

What do you hope that future generations will learn from your example of fighting for justice?

MURIEL  25:28 

The kids need to know about.....

MURIEL  25:37 

From right here, no, I don't look well enough to be on the screen, okay. But our youth today, and even our young adults, millenniums, and all of that, they really don't have a good appreciation for our black history. They tend to think that, you know, their history started when they started school, but but they don't know about black history. They don't know about the Tulsa massacre and other things that happened in other events that happened throughout the country, relative to reparations that should be looked at right now. And other instances, where as black towns and businesses were burned down, not only in Tulsa, but in other cities as well, you can only have a good appreciation for your future and your present, if you know about your past.

MURIEL  26:29 

That's the way I feel about... and see, back in my Dad's day, you know, and I hear this from other people, descendants from these other cities who suffered from these injustices and things, you know, burning down businesses and things such as that, that, you know, the people didn't talk about it because they were afraid of reprisal. They were afraid that somebody was going to come back, you know, some white police entity or something was going to come back and perhaps harm the family or relatives and things like that. So they didn't talk about it, because it was so hurtful for them.

MURIEL  27:02 

And that's why my aunt never talked about it. So when it came up, then she said, Oh, I don't want to talk about this. The first thing she says, I don't want to talk about that. She says it's just something that's just very hurtful. And you know, and it just makes me, you know, uncomfortable now. So, you know, it's finally come out. And she's more comfortable talking about the people back then and Tulsa and all that. That's why we... I graduated from high school in Oklahoma City, back in 1970. And we never had any type of information, history lessons or anything about Tulsa massacre is right, they're 100 miles from Oklahoma City. But no one ever taught us anything about it. So, you know, for me to wait until I'm like, you know, in my late 60s to learn about the Tulsa massacre, that is ridiculous. And disrespectful.

TONY  27:59 

That's a shame.

MURIEL  28:00 

You know, we're all humans here, that one group of people would do that to another group of people. It's just, it's unconscionable.

TONY  28:10 

Mr. Ellis, you're really an inspiration. I'm sure you hear that a lot. But we are so inspired by your example of continuing to fight for justice and, and serving as an example for all of us of what's possible. If you keep at it. And don't give up. So we want to just honor you and celebrate you and thank you for all that you've done and continue to do

HVE  28:34 

Respect, reparation....

MURIEL  28:40 

repair. That's our motto.

TONY  28:43 

That's awesome. Respect, reparations repair. Right. Wow. Is there any final thing that you want to you want to leave with us? You've shared so much wisdom, is there anything else you want to you want to share with our listeners?

HVE  28:56 

We want respect, as human beings? That's what we're fighting for.  We're human.

ADAM  29:06 

Mr. Ellis, we really appreciate your time and sharing some time with us. It's really meant a lot.

HVE  29:11 

Well thank you for taking the time.

TONY  29:13 

Yeah. Muriel, thank you for setting it up and going back and forth. And thank you for your your contribution. Even if we couldn't have you on screen. We got your voice. Very, very powerful. Yeah,

MURIEL  29:28 

Thank you. 

TONY  29:33 

Wow, man.

ADAM  29:33 

No kidding.

TONY  29:34 

You know, we're talking about fighting for reparations. He's living it right. 100 plus years later, he's in the court, you know, showing up you know, and doing his part to to make make this happen.

ADAM  29:45 

That's right. He and the two other survivors have been you know, doing news conferences and speaking out publicly and helping to make the case and they are plaintiffs in a case that's in court right now. And hopefully they're gonna go to trial and kick some ass.

TONY  29:58 

That's right and helping to make it make it All right. I think a lot of times we get caught up in reparations being theoretical hypothetical, you know, like, what if, what if, and, you know, they're here to show us like, No, this is, this is some shit that's like right here right now, you know, in our face. And if we're serious about it, let's let's let's, you know, get about the business of, you know, making reparations.

ADAM  30:19 

Yeah, and the American legal system makes it so incredibly difficult to get any kind of relief for reparations. These guys have made it through some big hoops already. And they are they're still fighting, and still surviving. And it's incredible.

TONY  30:32 

A couple of things that stood out for me, I don't know about you, but him, you know, him describing how his sister Viola sits up at night, you know, in a chair every night, every night still, because she can't she can't sleep through the night that she still has, you know, flashbacks and trauma from over 100 years ago. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine what that what kind of toll that must take on the quality of your life to be haunted by that every day?

ADAM  31:03 

Really, this is kind of in some ways, the best response to the argument that let's move on this is a long time ago is that it's not that long ago,

TONY  31:10 

not that long ago, and oh, harming people still harming people, you know, on a daily basis. You know, another aspect of of our discussion with Mr. Ellis that really stood out to me is the tragic irony of, you know, him being bombed at home domestically, right, while also being, you know, bombed abroad while serving in the army defending this country. Yeah, you know, what kind of crazy shit is that?

TONY  31:38 

So we have some more from our interview with Professor Miller. And in this segment, he raises some really deep philosophical and practical considerations about our collective willingness to do the work that's required to repair and transform our relationships.

ERIC  31:54 

So what we need is transformational justice. And for me, transformational justice is, and this is where I think reparations is actually really profound. Because it's not as sort of solidarity aspect towards reparations, in which, you know, one group says, We, as this group were harmed by you as this group. And the big question for me is, can we go on together, which may or may not include the question, how can we go on together? The thing that reparations exposes really quickly, is that it's the wrongdoers who are often quickest to reject going on together. So if you think about Tulsa, they're not going on together. They're going on apart, in which the wrongdoers are still wanting to stay as they are, and, and not to incorporate the needs and interests of the black citizens of Greenwood in North Tulsa. In in what they think about when they think about the good of Tulsa,

ADAM  33:03 

 like in any way right not to do anything at all.

ERIC  33:07 

Exactly. And so that's the current question in the United States. How do we do we go on together? How do we go on together? And for a large group of people? That's a deep pressing, profound, complicated, hurtful, traumatic question for another group of people. It's not a question. It's irrelevant. Exactly. And so that's why I think reparations is such a profound way of thinking about social justice. It's why think Tulsa is the frontline of reparations at the moment.

ADAM  33:49 

Yeah, this is a really deep question that Eric raises, are we in this together? Do we want to do this? And he points out that, you know, a lot of white people don't really want to be bothered with it and kind of want to move on without doing anything. And black people don't really have that choice, you know, living with racism every day.

TONY  34:05 

yeah, absolutely. Are we prepared to do the work to move forward? You know, or not, you know, it's one or the other. Right?

ADAM  34:11 

And if we are, if we're in this together, then there's a lot to do, and we need to get started. And if we're not in this together, and if you know, a lot of people just aren't committed to justice and equality. Let's call that out. Yeah, let's at least acknowledge that and and do something about that. So when one way or another, we need to shake things up.

TONY  34:32 

There's work to be done. Absolutely.

ADAM  34:33 

So for listeners who want to get involved, we have a great recommendation, which is to support Justice for Greenwood. This is the organization that brought the lawsuit. They're doing great work there in Tulsa. And all three of our guests agree that this is the number one thing you can do is to make them a contribution because they need to help and they're on social media. Check out Justice for Greenwood. There'll be in our show notes.

TONY  34:55 

And another organization that's doing some really great work on the ground in Tulsa is the Terrence Crutcher Foundation. It was founded by Tiffany Crutcher in honor of her brother who was killed by Tulsa police. And the foundation has its primary focus on police violence committed against unarmed black men. So information about the Terrence Crutcher foundation will also be found in our show notes. Check them out and see if there are ways that you can help support their work.

ADAM  35:24 

And tell your family and friends about the Tulsa massacre. You know, most of us didn't know much, if anything about it, until very recently, and also keep the conversation going about reparations. This is what we need to do.

TONY  35:37 

Yeah, keep the conversation going, you know, let's be critical in our analysis of mainstream narratives, especially when it's the folks who perpetrated the harms who are telling the story.

ADAM  35:48 

So some of these stories don't always have a clear path to reparations, at least not right now. And Tulsa, they're definitely still fighting and that is far from over. But we know that we need to keep pushing for the truth either way to make reparations possible.

TONY  36:02 

We believe that in telling these stories and putting a spotlight on that it helps make the Case for Reparations on a national scale. And that's what we're looking for. That's the goal on pay the tab.

TONY  36:17 

Hey, everybody, thanks for joining us on pay the tab. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe to our podcast and if you like what we're putting down, share it with your family and friends.

ADAM  36:25 

And please give us a review on Apple podcasts. This is the best way he can help us to get the word out with this show. So please check that out and give us some love.

TONY  36:33 

Thanks for listening. Keep coming back to pay the tab.