#19 - The Bucks Start Here: William Darity Jr. and Kirsten Mullen

[00:00:00] It's time to pay, pay the tab.

[00:00:16] Hi, I'm Tony Tolbert.

[00:00:17] And I'm Adam Radinsky.

[00:00:18] Welcome to Pay The Tab, where we make the case for reparations, one story at a time.

[00:00:23] Each episode, we expose the story of racial injustice. Then we explore creative ways to make it right.

[00:00:28] It's been long enough, America. It's time to pay the tab.

[00:00:37] So today, we are thrilled to have the dynamic duo of reparations joining us.

[00:00:42] William Darity and Kirsten Mullen.

[00:00:44] Yes.

[00:00:44] They are the number one leading experts in this fight for reparations.

[00:00:50] Definitely.

[00:00:50] And they will help break down, you know, the money. Right?

[00:00:55] Yep.

[00:00:55] That's not all that they focus on, but it certainly is a big component of it.

[00:00:59] And that's what we're leaning into.

[00:01:01] They have a plan for reparations that they have mapped out, you know, with meticulous research.

[00:01:07] And the main focus is on the money, which they're not apologetic about.

[00:01:11] Not at all. No, they died deep.

[00:01:12] Their main focus is that we need to bridge the racial wealth gap, which is the difference between what white America owns and what black folks own.

[00:01:21] Which is about a 10 times difference. Right?

[00:01:24] The average white family wealth is more than 10 times the average black family wealth.

[00:01:29] Yeah.

[00:01:30] The, the, in terms of numbers, gross numbers across the country, we're talking about the gap of $16 trillion.

[00:01:37] Yes.

[00:01:37] Right?

[00:01:37] Right.

[00:01:38] Yeah.

[00:01:38] Right.

[00:01:38] So you're not talking about insignificant sum.

[00:01:41] We're talking about a massive amount of money that has accumulated over, over the centuries.

[00:01:46] Right?

[00:01:47] Over, over, over years.

[00:01:48] Right.

[00:01:49] The gap has continued to grow.

[00:01:50] That's due to American racism.

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:52] Due to American racism that we can chart back to enslavement and all the way up to, you know, existing.

[00:01:57] Right?

[00:01:58] Which is ongoing.

[00:01:58] Um, that $16 trillion gap breaks down to, um, for roughly $400,000 per eligible person.

[00:02:08] Right.

[00:02:08] Per black American.

[00:02:09] Per black American.

[00:02:10] Right?

[00:02:11] Yeah.

[00:02:11] So we have a great interview with Darity and Mullen about reparations.

[00:02:14] We dive deep into the subject.

[00:02:16] Who's going to get paid?

[00:02:18] Yep.

[00:02:18] Why are reparations owed?

[00:02:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:20] How can our government possibly afford this?

[00:02:23] Yes.

[00:02:23] One of our favorite topics.

[00:02:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:25] And what about cities and states doing reparations?

[00:02:27] Does that make sense?

[00:02:28] There's a whole lot that we get into with them.

[00:02:30] And yeah, we've been excited for a long time about sitting down with these guys and just thrilled to be able to share it with our listeners.

[00:02:37] Kirsten Mullen is a writer, folklorist, museum consultant, and lecturer whose work focuses on race, art, history, and politics.

[00:02:45] She's the founder of Artifactual, an arts consulting practice, and she was part of the team commissioned to design the National Museum of African American History and Culture in Washington, D.C.

[00:02:56] D.C.

[00:02:57] William Darity Jr. is professor of public policy, African and African American studies, economics, and business at Duke University, and is also the founding director of the Cook Center on Social Equity at Duke.

[00:03:08] Darity and Mullen co-wrote the seminal book, From Here to Equality, Reparations for Black Americans in the 21st Century.

[00:03:14] Together, the dynamic duo is widely regarded as the preeminent reparations scholars in the country.

[00:03:20] By the way, they're married, and they're joining us today from Durham, North Carolina.

[00:03:29] So, William Darity Jr. and Kirsten Mullen, welcome to Pay the Tab.

[00:03:34] Thank you.

[00:03:35] Thanks.

[00:03:35] Thank you very much.

[00:03:36] We are thrilled to have you on the show.

[00:03:38] Tony and I have been looking forward to having you since we've already first started the podcast.

[00:03:43] You folks literally wrote the book on reparations.

[00:03:47] We devoured your book From Here to Equality in 2020, where you all make the case for why we need reparations for black Americans, and then you do the hard work of breaking down the numbers, the math, and break it all down with a very full, thorough plan.

[00:04:06] For how to do it.

[00:04:07] So, we're really excited to speak with you today and to go into this with you.

[00:04:12] So, just to get right into it, your proposal for reparations has three parts, which you call ARC, Acknowledgement, Redress, and Closure.

[00:04:23] And I know we want to dig into that with you today in some detail.

[00:04:29] Yeah, so we'll start with acknowledgement.

[00:04:31] That's where it all begins, right?

[00:04:33] And as we understand it, that mainly consists of education, awareness, truth-telling, acknowledgement.

[00:04:40] And that's a prerequisite to achieving reparations, right?

[00:04:44] That we have to start there in order to even move forward.

[00:04:47] So, if you would, please explain to us why it's critical to start with acknowledgement and why it's important to repair our national memory and consciousness.

[00:04:56] Thank you.

[00:04:59] Thank you.

[00:05:24] Thank you.

[00:05:26] Thank you.

[00:05:31] Thank you.

[00:05:35] Thank you.

[00:05:37] Thank you.

[00:06:02] Thank you, Dr.

[00:06:07] white founders, the white supremacists made. You know, we often say that, you know, slavery was

[00:06:11] affirmative action for white people. You know, how much of a leg up can anyone get? You know,

[00:06:19] what better leg up than to have access to labor that you don't have to pay?

[00:06:25] Yeah. Well, I was just going to add something a little bit different, which is the concept

[00:06:32] of acknowledgement is also attached to the expectation that the perpetrators, and in this

[00:06:41] context, the perpetrators, from our perspective, is the federal government. The perpetrators take

[00:06:47] responsibility for the harms and damages that have taken place and issue a formal apology.

[00:06:54] Right. Now, the U.S. Congress has apologized for slavery and for legal segregation in the United

[00:07:04] States. The House of Representatives apologized in 2007. The Senate apologized in 2008. But

[00:07:12] interestingly enough, the Senate's apology included a provision that this did not have any kind of

[00:07:20] implications for some sort of act of restitution. Right. Don't get the wrong idea. That's right.

[00:07:26] Right. So we need a new apology that would be structured directly in the context of legislation

[00:07:32] for reparations. And it's important that that apology be placed in that document because it would

[00:07:41] provide us with some ammunition to survive strict scrutiny by the judicial system. The federal

[00:07:50] government has to say, yes, we did these things. These things were wrong. Right. And now we are trying

[00:07:57] to make amends. Yeah. Yeah. Great. And Kirsten, we understand you coined the term dismemory,

[00:08:05] which is an awesome term. And as we understand it, it essentially means kind of how our history has

[00:08:11] been misrepresented, whitewashed by design, right? Intentionally.

[00:08:16] Absolutely. I mean, there are at least two organizations that have had and do continue

[00:08:23] to play a key role in this dismemory project. And that is the United Daughters of the Confederacy

[00:08:28] and the Daughters of the American Revolution. You know, both of these groups were greatly invested

[00:08:34] in, you know, what was happening on the ground in the public sphere after the Civil War. And, you know,

[00:08:43] they interviewed Confederate veterans and took transcriptions of those conversations along with

[00:08:52] mementos, their uniforms, locks of their hair, correspondence. And these items became

[00:09:00] the collections, the first collections of many, many state archives. I think that's something people don't

[00:09:07] actually know. State archives did not exist before their efforts to place, you know, to find a repository

[00:09:13] for these memorials to the Confederacy. They also got involved in the textbook business.

[00:09:22] When they could not persuade textbook writers to hew to their view of life, the glorification of the

[00:09:34] South, the glorification of slavery. You know, slavery was this civilization process that turned savage

[00:09:42] Africans into respectable servants whose highest achievement, whose highest goal in life was serving

[00:09:50] white people 24-7, that Southerners, the Southern Confederates were patriots, that they were men of

[00:09:59] integrity, that they were, you know, the strongest models, the best models of Americanism.

[00:10:07] I wanted to ask you something about the acknowledgement prong of your plan as well, because I agree that the

[00:10:12] term dismemory is very powerful and it gives a name to something that I think we all sense on so many

[00:10:17] different levels. But if we were to like pan out a little bit and look at our government's history over

[00:10:24] the past centuries, it seems like there's been so much intentional dismemory. We have events that are

[00:10:31] not even ever mentioned in textbooks, some of the, you know, the massacres that you refer to in your book

[00:10:37] and even just, you know, large pieces of our history that none of us are ever taught, even if we major in

[00:10:44] history, we never learn about these important things. And it seems like the dismemory campaign

[00:10:50] is ongoing, right? I mean, we are, things immediately get erased or not reported on and

[00:10:56] the powers that be have incredible, incredible power to control what we know, right? And so,

[00:11:02] I don't know, when I think about the acknowledgement, it seems like it's a big job, right? To not only,

[00:11:09] like you say, Sandy, have a, you know, a formal government commemoration and apology and recognition,

[00:11:15] but then also just to start giving us some good information. So, so the rest of it makes sense,

[00:11:21] right? Right. I mean, part of the difficulty is we have never had a formal deconfederatization

[00:11:27] project. There was never a point when the U.S. government said, we will no longer allow

[00:11:36] conversations about these ideas to be held in the public sphere. We will not let this ideology,

[00:11:46] these symbols, these, you know, images of these individuals. One of the things that

[00:11:51] the United Daughters of the Confederacy did was send photographs of Confederate officers to public

[00:11:59] schools across the country. They sent Confederate flags because I always wonder, like, where did these

[00:12:03] things come from? Like, who, you know, how do they happen to be so ubiquitous? Well, there was a

[00:12:09] campaign to make sure that they were well represented across the United States and not just in the South.

[00:12:18] But yes, this was definitely a focused effort. Organized. Definitely organized. There was a playbook,

[00:12:25] you know, for how you do it. You know, what are the instruments that you use? Who are the people

[00:12:29] that you need to talk to? But yes, we, you know, this is why we had until very recently Confederate

[00:12:36] flags flying at U.S., United States air bases, you know, military bases around the world. You know,

[00:12:42] no wonder. Not only are we confused, but people around the world about, you know, who won the Civil

[00:12:48] War. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. Decisions in the United States. Yeah. Well, we want to we want to move on

[00:12:54] to the second part of your ARC or ARC program, which is redress. And that's the part that I'm sure

[00:13:02] gets the most, most publicity and the most questions for you. I know that's true for us as well.

[00:13:10] Everybody wants to know, what does that look like? How's it going to work? And we're talking about

[00:13:14] compensation, right? Money paying the tab in one form or another. And we want to dive into that with

[00:13:20] you. How do you take all of these centuries of crimes against humanity and these atrocities that

[00:13:26] are so large in scope and and and and put numbers to them? Right. And your position seems to be, well,

[00:13:33] you know, we have to we have to do it. You know, this is this is what we're here to study. It looks

[00:13:39] like where you end up in your proposal is saying, look, we have to come up with some measure that is

[00:13:45] that is findable, that is that is doable, that that is also reasonable to give compensation to

[00:13:51] black Americans in a proper way. And that's where we talk about the measure of the racial wealth gap.

[00:13:57] Now, we've we've talked about the racial wealth gap on our show a few times already. And just to to

[00:14:03] remind folks, you know, what we're talking about is recent studies in America showing that on average,

[00:14:11] white American families have approximately 10 times the amount of wealth as the average black families.

[00:14:19] And as you all have said, you know, wealth is very different from income. It is a measure of all

[00:14:26] the assets that you own minus the debts that you have, which is a big one, too. And and you say in the

[00:14:33] book that the racial wealth gap is a good yardstick for kind of the cumulative effects of our

[00:14:39] country's racist policies over time. For either of you, can you share with us just a little bit of why you

[00:14:45] think this is an appropriate measure and why that makes sense for reparations?

[00:14:49] I mean, you're absolutely right, Adam, we were looking for a summary measure that we could use, and that was

[00:14:55] not so cumbersome. But the racial wealth gap, you know, captures this cumulative, and as you said,

[00:15:01] the intergenerational economic impact of white supremacy on black American descendants of US slavery.

[00:15:08] You know, it is based upon the effects of the entire history of policies that built white wealth,

[00:15:14] while denying black Americans the capacity to accumulate wealth. So when we're talking about

[00:15:21] these policies, so we're talking about things like, you know, the post slavery federal land distribution

[00:15:26] movement. This is, you know, none of the freedmen, you know, received those 40 acres, despite the promise

[00:15:37] from the federal government to receive them. While at the same time, white Americans received 160 acres

[00:15:45] under the Homestead Act of 1862. It's like 1.5 million white households received that federal

[00:15:52] largesse in the form of 160 acre land grants. Now, it's important to know too that, you know,

[00:15:59] this is the land that was in the western part of the nation. So they were basically completing

[00:16:03] the colonial settler project, you know, helping to remove Native and Indigenous people from those lands.

[00:16:11] But you're talking about federal complicity, and then sanctioning, and or sanctioning of

[00:16:18] the country. So we have been able to identify all across the country, not just in the south,

[00:16:25] Bisbee, Arizona, you know, Delaware. You know, these were white terrorist attacks that not only violently

[00:16:35] took black lives, but also led to the appropriation of black property, you know, by those same white terrorists.

[00:16:45] So then in the 20th century, the way the federal government assists white Americans, while,

[00:16:51] you know, allowing black people to languish was through home ownership, you know, rather than land

[00:16:58] redistribution, right? So, you know, this would have been great if, you know, those programs had been

[00:17:04] made available to everyone, but they were not. They were very discriminatorily applied. So we're talking

[00:17:09] about redlining, we're talking about the GI Bill, which provided funds to buy a home, a farm,

[00:17:14] you know, government backed loans, low interest loans. You know, prior to Second World War, very few

[00:17:21] people owned a home who were not from wealthy families, high wealth families, even white people

[00:17:27] couldn't afford to buy a house. But this was the beginning of, you know, the white middle class,

[00:17:32] as Ira Katz-Nelson so famously wrote in his book, When Affirmative Action Was White.

[00:17:38] This was a huge push that the federal government made to assist white Americans, and including

[00:17:46] recent immigrants from Europe. So then this is followed by urban renewal, also known as slum

[00:17:51] clearance, Negro removal, plus the expansion of federal highway system, which, you know, bypassed,

[00:17:58] uh, cut through black communities, but especially black business communities. Um, and these almost

[00:18:06] none of these communities have fully recovered from, uh, you know, from the fire that the federal,

[00:18:14] uh, the interstate highway system. And cut through by design, right? Not, not, not, not happenstance,

[00:18:20] not coincidence. Absolutely. The homestead acts, those land grants to white people in the,

[00:18:24] the mid 19th century you were talking about. You say, I believe in the book that today, 46 million

[00:18:30] American adults can trace at least some good portion of their family wealth to those grants.

[00:18:35] That's like a quarter, a quarter of American adults, which is just a huge white, white people,

[00:18:41] which is just, you know, I think there's so many ways that, um, you know, we white people have to

[00:18:48] constantly be learning, unlearning some things and, and learning a whole bunch of other things. And one

[00:18:52] of them is just all the forms of, of special treatment and privilege and government handouts

[00:18:58] that we've gotten that, that are not taught, that are not known. And so anyway, you, you guys,

[00:19:04] I think do a great job of laying some of those things out and helping it to resonate.

[00:19:08] It's a very interesting, um, uh, uh, thing that we learned related to this. There's a local high

[00:19:15] school that's taught our book three times. Uh, so three different classes. And, um, you know,

[00:19:21] we had suggested that the instructor have the students, you know, talk to their families and

[00:19:25] find out where the wealth in their family came from, you know, talk to your parents or grandparents

[00:19:29] or great grandparents, if they're still living and find out, you know, what's what, you know,

[00:19:35] you know, how did, how did, how, how did your family come to be as well to do as it is? Um,

[00:19:40] but the students, you know, had heard stories about, you know, a relative who was an inventor

[00:19:44] or an innovator, someone who had, uh, tremendous luck or who was really hardworking, um, you know,

[00:19:52] someone who, um, you know, wrote, you know, maybe, maybe they had maybe a bestseller. Anyway,

[00:19:58] all these things may be true, but they also had assists from the federal government, but fully 25%

[00:20:04] of the white students found evidence of a homestead act. Uh, some of them found more than one. Um,

[00:20:12] I believe all of them had a GI bill in their family, uh, for the purchase of a home or a farm

[00:20:19] or a business. Um, zero students of color had a homestead act patent and zero had a GI bill

[00:20:30] for the purchase of a home, a farm or a business. There were some black students whose family members

[00:20:36] had, um, whose, whose ancestors had received the GI bill for education. And in fact, both

[00:20:41] of us, our parents, our fathers received that benefit for education, right? Yeah. I thought,

[00:20:49] I think it's surprising to, to really almost everybody. We talked to the degree of the wealth

[00:20:54] gap. So maybe, um, I don't know, Sandy, if you wanted to just break down for us briefly, what the,

[00:21:00] a couple of those numbers, right. When we talk about, and I noticed over time, we've been following

[00:21:04] your work the last few years and, and each, each new paper has a new number. It just keeps getting

[00:21:09] bigger, right. And compounding is a, is an interesting thing. But, but if we take, say,

[00:21:15] as I understand it from, from your most recent large data from 2022, that you, that you're looking

[00:21:22] at per capita for each black man, woman and child in America is somewhere in the neighborhood of $400,000

[00:21:29] per person is the degree of that. Is that right? That's, that's, that's right. That's a good rough estimate.

[00:21:35] But, and that's just the racial wealth gap that we're talking about. Right. Right.

[00:21:39] But, but there's more in, you know, your new book, the black reparations project,

[00:21:43] you crunch some more numbers and include, um, you know, the latest studies on the full damages

[00:21:49] from, from slavery. Right. And so we, you know, refer to some of these as, as special damages in,

[00:21:55] in the legal system. These are actual measurable losses, losses that can be determined. So one is the

[00:22:00] value of stolen labor, which we understand you calculated, um, in the neighborhood or,

[00:22:05] or calculated at a minimum of $19 trillion. Well, I, I was a collaborator on one of these

[00:22:12] projects, but the, the, the primary individual to do this research is Thomas Graber. Okay. Thanks.

[00:22:18] Thanks for, for correcting that. Uh, but is that, is it that that's the number that that was derived?

[00:22:22] That was $19 trillion? Uh, that's one of the numbers that he derives. It's, it's,

[00:22:27] it's contingent on which interest rate you use for compounding to the present. Right. Uh, so if you

[00:22:33] get into the zone of having an interest rate of above 6%, then you start talking about quadrillions

[00:22:40] of dollars. Uh, and, uh, and, and these are extremely high numbers, but we also know that the nature

[00:22:48] of the atrocity was extreme. Absolutely. But, but here's the proviso. We do not think that living

[00:22:56] black Americans whose ancestors were enslaved here should receive the sum of money that was due to

[00:23:06] the ancestors for experiencing slavery directly. So our concern is arriving at an estimate that's relevant

[00:23:18] to the current circumstances of black Americans whose ancestors were enslaved here, which would

[00:23:26] include the effects of the various policies that, that Kirsten was talking about. And so that's why we don't

[00:23:34] say that black Americans who are living today should receive, uh, this 19 quadrillion dollar figure.

[00:23:43] We say that the focus should be on the cumulative effects across time that are manifest in current

[00:23:51] conditions. Being felt today. Right. And we think that one way in which you can capture that is by the, uh,

[00:23:57] the racial wealth gap. Which makes sense. And, and I guess part of what we, we try to do with

[00:24:01] on pay the tab is expose the, the full extent of the tab. Right. Um, and you know, and, and we appreciate

[00:24:09] that the racial wealth gap is, um, a knowable, uh, discernible number that makes, makes a lot of sense.

[00:24:16] Um, you know, I guess we just talk about the value of stolen labor and the value of stolen freedom,

[00:24:21] right. As other, other harms that emanated from the institution of slavery.

[00:24:26] Yeah. That's when, that's how Thomas gets the big figures.

[00:24:29] I was gonna say that's, that's the innovation I think of Thomas Kramer's work. He's saying it's not

[00:24:33] just the work day that was stolen, but it was the entire 24 hours every day, day in, day out,

[00:24:39] year in, year out that was stolen.

[00:24:40] Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, uh, another, uh, another piece we wanted to just run by you. We,

[00:24:45] we, we saw a recent mention of, uh, sort of an alternative to the racial wealth gap as a yardstick

[00:24:50] for reparations that was put out by a researcher named, uh, Elizabeth Wrigley Field, who had been

[00:24:56] from Chicago. I approve of that interesting last name. Um, but, uh, the, the, this is the longevity gap,

[00:25:03] right. And, and, um, we have talked a bit about, um, the, the, uh, different lifespans that black

[00:25:10] and white Americans today have. Uh, and, and it's, it's, it's kind of shocking. I think in her

[00:25:16] piece, she talks about a sort of conservative estimate of maybe nationally of about five years

[00:25:21] on average. I know here in California, you know, our, our task force has done some research on that

[00:25:25] and they put it closer to eight years difference in lifespan between black and white people. Um, but,

[00:25:31] but, but, you know, the, the, the way the argument goes is that as a result of segregation, discrimination,

[00:25:37] all the atrocities of our racist society, including extremely unequal healthcare, housing jobs,

[00:25:43] and so forth, um, that's what leads to this difference, right? And so, um, in her article,

[00:25:48] she crunches the numbers, uh, and, and at that federal level comes to a number around $700,000 per

[00:25:55] person for those lost five, six, seven, eight years. Well, no, actually, actually we crunched the

[00:26:00] numbers in. Oh, there you go. Okay. Thank you. I should have known. It's her argument about the

[00:26:06] gap in life expectancy being a standard that should be used for calculating reparations, but

[00:26:13] she doesn't actually do the estimates in her article. Okay. So the $700,000 figure is a consequence

[00:26:21] of work that, uh, Thomas Kramer, Dania Francis, and, uh, Diana Ramey Berry, and I did in the production to,

[00:26:29] uh, this, this new and recent, uh, double issue of the Russell Sage Foundations journal.

[00:26:37] Right. I think that's where, that's where we found it. And, and by the way, that number is very close

[00:26:40] to the California task force number for the, uh, which I think is a little, theirs is a little bit

[00:26:45] higher actually, uh, per person, but yeah, I mean, it is a very compelling argument. Uh, do you all think

[00:26:51] that, uh, the longevity gap? Oh, and by the way, so when you, when you do the math for all black

[00:26:55] Americans in the same way of multiplying by roughly 40 million people, you're looking at a number of

[00:27:01] around 28 trillion, um, just to compensate for the lost life. Right. And these are using conservative

[00:27:08] actuarial numbers for the value of a human life. Um, and, and so again, this is kind of a conservative

[00:27:13] number. What, what do you guys think about, um, the longevity gap as a possible yardstick for reparations?

[00:27:20] I think it's a perfectly legitimate yardstick. Uh, I like to say, you know, if you were to use the

[00:27:25] racial wealth gap, we'd be giving you a bargain. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think by all accounts is,

[00:27:32] is accurate. Right. I mean, exactly. Don't wait till next year. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know. I mean,

[00:27:39] I've heard, uh, you know, Sandy in some of your interviews, uh, you know, that some of the sort of

[00:27:45] mainstream media, uh, opinions come, come out, uh, into daylight about, um, well, this is just a lot

[00:27:51] of money and like, what are we talking about here? And you know, there's one thing we hear a lot in

[00:27:57] our culture is, you know, black people won't know what to do with all that money, right? Black people

[00:28:01] will squander that money. Um, white America and our mainstream media are kind of obsessed when it comes

[00:28:08] to black people and money. How do you respond to that mindset of like, well, gosh, that's a lot of

[00:28:13] money. People are going to need some, uh, you know, some financial literacy first of all, and,

[00:28:17] and, and kind of go from there. Well, let me say, first of all, we don't necessarily object to

[00:28:24] reparations preparation. We don't object to that. Um, but we do find it odd that when the potential

[00:28:32] recipients of, uh, reparations is black Americans since the US slavery, all of these questions come

[00:28:39] to the surface. Um, you know, paternalism is at the heart, you know, of these conversations. Um,

[00:28:46] you know, who is to decide when monies are quote squandered? Um, you know, the question, uh, you

[00:28:53] know, was, was not asked when, um, Holocaust, uh, victims and their families were receiving funds.

[00:29:01] People didn't say, oh, but wait, you know, they need to, they need to get financial literacy first,

[00:29:07] or those funds should be spent on scholarships or those funds should be spent on counseling or what

[00:29:14] have you. Um, the funds were given directly to the eligible members of the community as they should be.

[00:29:23] And, and that's exactly what should happen in the case of black Americans who are owed reparations from

[00:29:29] the federal government. And is it paternalism or racism or, or, or both?

[00:29:33] I think it's both. They're intertwined. They're intertwined. Um, you know, when Japanese Americans

[00:29:38] received, um, you know, payments for undergoing mass incarceration, you know, people didn't say,

[00:29:45] oh, wait, you know, here are the steps that need to take place beforehand. Um, when Americans who were

[00:29:52] held hostage in Iran, um, you know, received reparations, uh, you know, they weren't required to

[00:29:59] take some kind of, you know, training first. Um, so are you all aware that, uh, the Americans who were

[00:30:06] held hostage, uh, in Tehran received, uh, reparations from the U.S. group?

[00:30:11] Yep. Yep.

[00:30:12] So tell me how much they received.

[00:30:16] That's a good question. I don't know.

[00:30:18] I want to say like maybe a hundred thousand dollars. Was it that much?

[00:30:22] They received $10,000 per day of captivity.

[00:30:26] Really?

[00:30:26] Which amounted to $4.4 million a piece.

[00:30:29] Wow.

[00:30:31] But, but, but they didn't need, uh,

[00:30:33] They didn't need financial literacy before they received those funds, right?

[00:30:37] I think you also point out that generational transfers of wealth, uh, happen far, far more

[00:30:42] frequently, um, with, with white families because there's just more generational wealth. And so,

[00:30:47] you know, one thing that comes right to mind is, well, I'm sure most people would have a whole

[00:30:51] lot of things they could just pay off with, with, uh, with, with a payment and probably not even

[00:30:56] really get started and not pay it all off.

[00:30:59] Yeah.

[00:31:00] Under some of the guaranteed income experiments, uh, that have been conducted around the country.

[00:31:06] Uh, one of the first things that low income families who receive those supplements do

[00:31:11] is pay off their debts.

[00:31:14] Yeah.

[00:31:16] Hey, at least speaking for myself, you know, cut, cut me a check and let me,

[00:31:19] let me figure it out from there.

[00:31:20] That's exactly right.

[00:31:21] That's the point.

[00:31:22] Exactly right.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:24] Exactly right.

[00:31:25] Uh, so let's, uh, switch gears and talk about who should be eligible to receive reparations.

[00:31:31] Um, you know, we know sort of the, the nationally, the debate, the debate breaks down between the

[00:31:36] lineage based concept, right? Folks who've descended from an enslaved person and race-based or

[00:31:42] identity-based people who have identified as, as, as black. Um, and your formula seems to

[00:31:47] be somewhat of a hybrid if, if I'm characterizing correctly, right? That it's requires that, um,

[00:31:52] the recipient have, um, a descendant, that they're a descendant of at least one enslaved person

[00:31:58] and they themselves have self-identified as black African-American or Negro at least 12 years prior

[00:32:04] to the start of the reparations program or the study that's, you know, commissioned to, to,

[00:32:09] to, to enact a program.

[00:32:11] Yes.

[00:32:11] Okay. So I guess the question is, um, you know, acknowledging that racism,

[00:32:19] discrimination has impacted, impacts all black people, right? Um, and I think one of the examples

[00:32:24] you give in your, one of your books is, you know, police, police stop a black, black person,

[00:32:28] right? They're not asking for your passport. They're not asking for your, your birth certificate.

[00:32:32] You know, you're, you're black and, and not to cast off cops in the same vein, but, but,

[00:32:37] you know, you, you, you, you are treated as, as a, as a black person. So I guess the question is why,

[00:32:41] um, you know, what the making of the distinction, um, and including the lineage component, tell us,

[00:32:48] you know, what, what the, um, added, uh, added value of that is, if that, if that's a

[00:32:53] accurate question. We're talking about people who, whose ancestors were brought here forcibly

[00:33:01] in shackles in the belly of a ship. Um, certainly there are black people who came later and for, you know,

[00:33:10] unless you're talking about individuals who came, um, uh, you know, whose family, whose

[00:33:16] families are part of the diplomatic core, uh, some folks in New York, some folks in the Caribbean and

[00:33:22] in Miami. Um, you're talking about people who came to United States in the 1880s and later.

[00:33:28] And came voluntarily.

[00:33:30] And came voluntarily and came with money in their pockets.

[00:33:33] Mm. Mm.

[00:33:34] You know, they could not come to the United States legally unless they met certain criteria.

[00:33:40] Um, now we would be the first to say that those individuals probably do have reparations claims

[00:33:45] to make legitimately, but not against the U S government.

[00:33:49] Mm. Mm.

[00:33:50] Uh, if you are from Haiti, your claim would be made to France, which is a curious case because

[00:33:57] France has forced Haiti to pay it reparations.

[00:34:00] Mm. Yep.

[00:34:00] So, Haiti needs to get that money back plus interest and reparations.

[00:34:04] Yeah.

[00:34:04] Um, if you are from Trinidad, from Jamaica, from Antigua, you make your claim to the UK.

[00:34:11] Mm.

[00:34:11] Uh, if you are from the Congo, the Belgian Congo, you make your claim to Belgium.

[00:34:16] There are many, many, many perpetrators that owe reparations claims.

[00:34:21] And there's some complicated cases like Brazil, you know, that has multiple, uh, nations that,

[00:34:27] you know, uh, enslaved descendants can appeal to.

[00:34:31] And we support all of those efforts, but that is not the project that we're focused on.

[00:34:37] There is an organization called CARICOM that is focused on reparations for individuals in

[00:34:44] certain Caribbean countries.

[00:34:46] Um, and you know, we were very interested to learn, you know, the tenets of CARICOM's mission.

[00:34:52] And one of those is that they do not include black American descendants of U S slavery in their claim.

[00:35:00] Because it's a different thing.

[00:35:02] Right.

[00:35:02] Right.

[00:35:02] Right.

[00:35:03] But the, the reverse is also true. Black American citizens of U S slavery should not be compelled

[00:35:08] to include all of these other members of the African diaspora in their claim. You know,

[00:35:14] people often will say, well, well, but before you, you know, before we talk about black reparations,

[00:35:18] we talk about all these other groups. Um, and we talk about indigenous people say, yes, absolutely.

[00:35:25] That's a huge claim.

[00:35:26] Definitely.

[00:35:27] That should be made, but that is not the project we're working on.

[00:35:31] Fair enough.

[00:35:31] And then I would also ask, you know, why is it when we're talking about black

[00:35:36] descendants of U S slavery, potentially receiving reparations, we talk about all of these other

[00:35:40] groups.

[00:35:41] Right.

[00:35:42] You know, no one compelled, um, you know, when, when Germany was, was talking about,

[00:35:47] you know, reparations for the victims of the Holocaust, they didn't say, oh, wait,

[00:35:50] what about the native Americans in the United States?

[00:35:52] Oh, wait. You know, it's like, no, they focused on the individuals very specifically, uh,

[00:35:58] who had been harmed.

[00:35:59] They maintain the integrity of that particular claim, that particular home.

[00:36:04] And this log rolling we find, uh, serves mostly to just dilute the case and to make people say,

[00:36:11] oh, you know,

[00:36:12] And distract.

[00:36:13] It's a huge distraction.

[00:36:16] That seems to be a common strategy for sure. Yeah.

[00:36:19] Yeah. I mean, I know we wanted to ask you about the third part of ARC, which is closure.

[00:36:25] And I know we have a couple of specific questions for you guys about that, but maybe you could start

[00:36:28] by just briefly laying out what, what does closure mean to you? And what would that look

[00:36:33] like under your program to get proper closure, uh, for black Americans?

[00:36:39] I mean, we need to arrive at a point where the debt is paid and then no further claims for restitution

[00:36:47] would be made by the victimized community. So what that would mean is, you know, groups would,

[00:36:52] you know, sit down and have conversations about this, you know, are we satisfied? Uh, but then also

[00:36:59] there would need to be no new claims, you know, no new atrocities be set on black people, uh, and no,

[00:37:07] you know, uh, no return of old, uh, harms and atrocities.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:13] I was asking about that.

[00:37:14] Instantaneous. It's not a quick fix. Um, but it's one that we think could be achieved and should

[00:37:21] be achieved. And once that goal has been reached, there would be no more race-based claims made by

[00:37:31] black Americans of us slavery on the U S federal government.

[00:37:35] Once there's full closure.

[00:37:36] Correct.

[00:37:37] Okay. And, and one of the things that you recognize in your book, you know, under international law,

[00:37:41] one of the key forms of reparations is what they call the guarantee of non-repetition, right? Just

[00:37:46] what you were just saying, making sure it doesn't happen again.

[00:37:49] That's the equivalent.

[00:37:49] Yeah. And I think we would, we would all agree that that is a critical thing.

[00:37:53] It's also the term that's typically used in international law. Another component is

[00:37:57] satisfaction.

[00:37:59] Right.

[00:37:59] So it's, it's, it's both satisfaction and non-repetition that's embodied in our notion of closure.

[00:38:06] Right. So I guess just wondering, I mean, have you all explored ideas in your program for

[00:38:13] how we would get that kind of a guarantee? How, how would, you know, given our history,

[00:38:18] you know, obviously the, the, the, the payment of reparations money is, is a crucial part as you say,

[00:38:26] but okay. You know, once, once that payment is made, what, what else are we doing under this program to,

[00:38:32] you know, change the structure of our society to make sure that we're not just built on this structure of racism?

[00:38:37] So the eligible recipients under our plan would have the responsibility of electing

[00:38:46] a monitoring body to continue to assess the reparations project. And so, uh, the monitoring body

[00:38:56] would ultimately be in a position to say, yes, the terms of the legislation have been met. And, uh,

[00:39:06] we, we don't have an expectation that anything new will be done unless there is a new harm.

[00:39:11] Yeah. And that body would also have the power to investigate or to cause to be investigated,

[00:39:16] um, the concerns of the claims that individuals make.

[00:39:21] Yeah. Okay. So having, having a body that is there to monitor and administer, right. Uh, the,

[00:39:26] the, the program.

[00:39:27] But, but the key thing is it would be elected by the eligible recipients.

[00:39:31] By the recipients. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Some people say, what good is having,

[00:39:36] um, you know, a reasonable check for reparations if you're still living in a society that is based on,

[00:39:43] uh, you know, the doctrine of white supremacy and racism and extractive capitalism and so forth?

[00:39:48] Like, don't we need to change our whole system, uh, before we make money reparations? You know,

[00:39:54] how, how do you respond to, to, to those kinds of things?

[00:39:58] So I think, um, I mean, there's a couple of things here. Um, you know, I think these individuals are

[00:40:07] underestimating the transformative, you know, nature of black households having a net worth of

[00:40:13] $1 million, you know, more than they, they do currently. Um, you know, and they're not thinking

[00:40:19] too about the potential for collective and individual political action, um, that, you know,

[00:40:27] they would be able to participate in the, you know, public sphere in a way that they, they were not

[00:40:32] previously. And some of that action could be, uh, a project, uh, involving the dismantling of

[00:40:39] structures of racism. Um, you know, but racism would, would, you know, would have had to be moderated,

[00:40:45] you know, to some extent, um, in order for black reparations, you know, true black reparations to

[00:40:49] be enacted in the first place. Um, you know, we're not going to get it with the Congress that we have.

[00:40:54] Um, but certainly, um, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of progress could be made, um, once we get,

[00:41:04] you know, a different set of folks, you know, in the, in the house and the Senate, but it's,

[00:41:08] you know, it's not clear, you know, why the claim for an unpaid debt, um, by black Americans should

[00:41:14] carry with it, the responsibility for the overthrow of capitalism. You know, um, let's put that,

[00:41:22] that item on somebody else's list or give us a whole lot more money, you know, to, to work on that.

[00:41:31] Right. Right. That would be a separate allocation. Gotcha. Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned something

[00:41:35] that I know we want to, we want to touch on, which is how we get there. Right. And, and, uh,

[00:41:40] right. Even the, the conservative numbers, um, that we're talking about for the racial wealth gap

[00:41:45] and, and, you know, doing sort of just targeted, uh, targeted reparations. It's still, uh, it's a

[00:41:51] big lift, right. And as, as Tony was saying, it's a big number and, you know, to, to get public

[00:41:56] support and public opinion that that's what we need, right. If we're going to get legislative change

[00:42:00] at the federal level, which I think we all agree is the, is the key of where it has to come from. So,

[00:42:05] um, you all have talked a bit about public opinion in some of your recent work and,

[00:42:09] you know, it seems to us to that there is a really noticeable momentum in the last few years.

[00:42:16] Some of the changes in some of the polls, the, you know, the public opinion surveys,

[00:42:20] especially maybe white Americans, especially young white Americans. Um, did, did you want to

[00:42:26] touch on some of that possible change and, and tell us, you know, is there a reason to be hopeful

[00:42:30] that we might be headed in the right direction for legislative change?

[00:42:35] Well, I think there are some grounds for optimism. Uh, and I'm

[00:42:39] not sure to what extent these changes in attitude will be nurtured further. Uh, but there, there is,

[00:42:47] there are some possibilities on the horizon that did not appear to be present say 20 years ago. Uh,

[00:42:53] if we go back to the year 2000, about 60% or so of black Americans endorsed monetary reparations.

[00:43:04] Uh, in, uh, at the same time, uh, at the same time, only 4% of white Americans endorsed monetary reparations.

[00:43:13] Uh, those numbers have changed over the course of the past 20 years. So that by January, 2023,

[00:43:20] a survey taken by, uh, researchers at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst indicates that about 75%

[00:43:29] of black Americans now endorsed monetary reparations and closer to 30% of white Americans endorsed monetary

[00:43:38] That's a big change. Yeah.

[00:43:39] Yeah. The very big change. Uh, yeah, still it's not a sufficient proportion to make this happen.

[00:43:46] But, uh, but the question is whether or not that kind of, uh, change in attitude can be sustained.

[00:43:54] Um, and, uh, I think you, you all mentioned that, that younger folks are even more predisposed towards

[00:44:02] supporting reparations. And I think in the UMass study, millennials, a majority of millennials are

[00:44:09] actually endorsed reparations as monetary payments.

[00:44:12] Young people are better on all issues these days.

[00:44:14] Yeah. So that's pretty striking. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, we don't know what's actually going to happen.

[00:44:21] We went into this, uh, this case with, uh, without having a strong sense of optimism about the outcome.

[00:44:31] But we also did not think that you should make a decision about what you should promote

[00:44:38] on the basis, merely on the basis of what you think is likely to happen.

[00:44:44] Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, um, in 1900, few people thought that women would,

[00:44:51] would gain the right to vote in this country. Um, in 1850, few people probably thought that slavery

[00:44:59] would come to an end. Um, more recently, uh, 1960, very few people probably thought that apartheid in

[00:45:08] South Africa would be dismantled. Uh, but there were people who thought I'm going to do the work,

[00:45:17] do the research, try to figure out a plan so that when that moment comes, there will be a blueprint.

[00:45:25] There'll be a path that others can consult and begin to think about what the way forward looks like.

[00:45:32] But I think it's really important to recognize that, you know, these, these conversations allow us to,

[00:45:39] to clarify our positions and also to create forums for like-minded people to meet and identify with

[00:45:47] these issues. Um, you know, over and over people say to us, now that I know that I can't unknow it.

[00:45:55] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:56] And I need to make some different kinds of decisions about how I'm living my life.

[00:46:01] So we're, we're encouraged obviously by the changing public opinion, right? And, you know,

[00:46:06] we understand that there's studies that there's a strong link between awareness of racial inequality

[00:46:12] and support for reparations, right? Which makes sense. Uh, on the other hand, we're also still

[00:46:18] dismayed if you will, by the brainwashing that many folks are still operating under,

[00:46:24] right? And the myths that white folks and some black folks, frankly, um, adhere to. So one,

[00:46:31] racism is over. Um, black people that, you know, that we as black people are to blame for our

[00:46:36] misfortune because there's something deficient in our, in our, in our culture, right? Which obviously

[00:46:41] doesn't, uh, you know, uh, tell the truth of the massive roadblocks that have been forced upon us

[00:46:47] then, then, then, then, then, and now. So I guess the question is, even though there's a positive

[00:46:51] more, nor does it tell the truth about our accomplishments in the face of these roadblocks.

[00:46:58] Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so even though there's positive momentum in terms of public opinion,

[00:47:03] why do you believe these, um, myths continue to persist in the way that they do?

[00:47:09] Well, I think part of it's ignorance. Uh, the other part of it is, uh, you know, there, there is, uh,

[00:47:17] there is a segment of the population that, uh, has such a fixed set of views about black people being

[00:47:25] inferior that it almost doesn't matter what new information they receive. Uh, I pray that that's a

[00:47:33] minority population and that there is the possibility of changing the attitudes and opinions of those folks

[00:47:42] who simply don't know better. Um, you know, the key response I have to folks who claim that, uh,

[00:47:52] that, that it's black dysfunction that has caused these kinds of disparities is you simply have to look

[00:47:59] at the instances in which black people have in quotes done the right thing and still suffer penalties

[00:48:08] or differential outcomes from white folks. And one of the most glaring examples is the fact that,

[00:48:15] uh, in the 2022 survey of consumer finances, uh, black heads of households with a college degree

[00:48:22] have $50,000 less in net worth than white heads of household who have high school diplomas or GEDs.

[00:48:32] Got it. Got it. Yeah. Well, uh, one, one, uh, last thing I wanted to ask you about before turning

[00:48:39] back to Tony is about, um, the local and state measures that we're hearing a lot about, uh, across

[00:48:45] America, uh, places like Evanston, Illinois and, and different states, uh, convening task forces. And you,

[00:48:52] you have both, uh, spoken about this and, um, uh, you know, we, we understand you to be saying that,

[00:48:58] first of all, um, local and state measures are not a viable way there. There's just not nearly enough

[00:49:04] funds to make any meaningful national reparation program that, that, that, that sort of seems

[00:49:09] obvious. Um, and, and, and you seem to also say that sometimes it could almost be counterproductive

[00:49:15] to have measures that are talked about as reparations, uh, could be counterproductive to

[00:49:21] the national movement. So, uh, can, can you all speak to that? Yeah. I mean, we, we think these

[00:49:26] efforts, you know, the, the, the best face to put on them is to say that they are well-intentioned.

[00:49:31] Mm-hmm. Um, but we would say if that is the case, don't call them reparations. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:39] Let's call them racial equity initiatives or something else. Mm-hmm. Uh, let's reserve this,

[00:49:44] you know, for us sacred language of reparations for an effort that is focused on the community

[00:49:52] whose ancestors were denied those 40 acre land grants. Um, and, you know, who self-identify

[00:50:00] as black African-American, Afro-American or Negro. Let's focus very sharply on that community. Um,

[00:50:07] but you know, the problems that we have with these efforts is first of all, they're all over the map.

[00:50:14] Um, you know, as you, you mentioned several of them, uh, you know, Evanston state of California,

[00:50:21] state of Illinois, California, uh, New York, New York state, you know, they are by definition,

[00:50:29] you know, they are incomplete, inconsistent, and inequitable. Um, there's no regulation.

[00:50:36] You know, anyone can just say that what they're doing is reparations. Um, whether it's a housing

[00:50:43] voucher program as, as is the case with Evanston and we would say a very poorly funded housing voucher

[00:50:48] program at that, um, whether it's, uh, a project that's about, um, drug, uh, you know, uh, drug

[00:50:59] prevention. Uh, there's a, there's a project in Vermont where, you know, white people are encouraged to

[00:51:05] contribute to a fund that black people, uh, no real kind of description of, of which black community,

[00:51:11] you know, big, you know, how these white people are identified can, can receive funds from, um,

[00:51:18] you know, and what's essentially an anti expanded anti-poverty program they're calling reparations.

[00:51:26] You know, so for us, you know, the key is the elimination of that racial wealth gap.

[00:51:31] You know, none of the cities, there are 107,000 cities and states in the, in the United States.

[00:51:37] Um, their total, their combined budget is about $5 trillion. Um, we're talking about a project

[00:51:45] that is three times that. Um, so are these cities and states, uh, going to use their budgets for three

[00:51:54] consecutive years to pay out reparations? No, that's not going to happen. Well, let me ask you this.

[00:51:59] I mean, do you guys think that these efforts, um, at a local level, say little, little projects,

[00:52:05] maybe piecemeal to the extent they help to, uh, publicize issues that might not be known about,

[00:52:12] such as even housing discrimination or, or forms of it, or, you know, do you think there is a positive

[00:52:19] purpose to be served? Maybe if the name is different, I'm just curious what you think.

[00:52:22] And I've been meaning to ask you this for a while now. Um, because, uh, personally, I think that,

[00:52:27] you know, some of these local measures can serve a positive purpose as long as they're not claiming

[00:52:33] to kind of close the book and like this, this is it, we're done, we're good now. Uh, but that it can

[00:52:38] help educate people or what do you guys think about that? You know, what would that these local efforts

[00:52:44] began by saying reparations is a federal project? We support the federal project. And if they were

[00:52:51] putting the same amount of energy behind pushing this federal project as they do for their local

[00:52:58] initiative, then we would say, yes, these folks are acting in good faith. But I don't know of a single

[00:53:04] case where that's happening of the now about 47 cases that we're aware of, not a single one of them.

[00:53:13] Yeah. They may pay some lip service to federal action, but they don't commit any effort.

[00:53:19] There's no lobbying effort. Um, there's no letter. Right. So that's our concern. And we know that

[00:53:25] there's a tendency, uh, not just among Americans, but just humankind to say, oh, you've got, you've

[00:53:31] got all these projects. It's being handled.

[00:53:33] It's being handled.

[00:53:34] You need reparations.

[00:53:35] Yeah. Right.

[00:53:35] You know, they point to this state or that city, um, this university that's done, that's all news.

[00:53:42] And, you know, in an environment where we have short attention spans and we are looking for just

[00:53:48] a little soundbite.

[00:53:50] Distracted.

[00:53:51] Yeah.

[00:53:52] Yeah.

[00:53:52] Unfortunately, a lot of people, you know, will come away with this notion that that work has been

[00:53:58] completed.

[00:53:59] Yep.

[00:53:59] And so we feel that it does a disservice to the movement. Um, you know, when Evanston was,

[00:54:06] um, you know, first announcing the Alderman first announcing their project, we received

[00:54:12] press, uh, we were invited by press in Japan to talk about Evanston.

[00:54:18] Wow.

[00:54:19] But when the revelations about what actually was happening in Evanston were made, where were they?

[00:54:27] You know, that, that doesn't make front page news.

[00:54:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:31] Um, you know, this rush to be the first, uh, to be the historic case, um, clouded these individuals,

[00:54:40] um, you know, their, I don't know, I would say it clouded their, um, ability to be accurate in their

[00:54:51] descriptions of what their projects were about and what they could achieve.

[00:54:57] Um, you know, so it said, Evanston has had just, Evanston, just give one example,

[00:55:00] has had to spend a lot of time and energy, you know, defending its project.

[00:55:06] Whereas if they had just said, this is a housing voucher, we discriminated against black people

[00:55:10] in the housing market for 50 years. We're trying to do something. It's not enough,

[00:55:16] but it's what we can do right now. We hope to do more. And we think that this is a tiny,

[00:55:22] you know, a small thing that we can do to begin to shed light on this problem,

[00:55:26] to acknowledge that we were wrong and to begin the process of rectifying that situation. But that's

[00:55:33] not what they did. Right. Yeah. What, one of the lines from your book that really resonated,

[00:55:37] resonated with me is, uh, that the federal government is both, um, capable and capable.

[00:55:43] Capable. Absolutely. Right. Um, and, and which is not the same for, um, states and, and, and locality,

[00:55:50] certainly on the, on the capability aspect of it. Um, so, so turning to that, how do we,

[00:55:54] how do we pay for it? Right. That's a question. I'm sorry. We, we pay for it the same way that

[00:56:01] the federal government paid for, uh, for funding its response to the great recession and for funding

[00:56:10] its response to the COVID-19 crisis, which is simply to pay for it, uh, without necessarily raising taxes.

[00:56:22] Right. And you lay out several options, how that can be done. It can be paid out over time,

[00:56:26] for example. Um, uh, you know, it could be, you know, the federal reserve bank can do,

[00:56:31] do something over the course of, you know, three to five years.

[00:56:33] The only issue with any increase in major increase in federal spending is whether or not you produce

[00:56:40] significant inflation. Right.

[00:56:42] Right. And so as long as you make every effort to design the project so that you minimize the risk

[00:56:48] of inflation, there's no limit to the additional amount of money that the federal government can

[00:56:56] spend without raising taxes. And if you were to, to spread this, say we, we, we wouldn't want it to

[00:57:01] be spread over more than 10 years. Sure. But if you were to spread it over 10 years and you're talking

[00:57:06] about 16 trillion dollars, that's 1.6 trillion dollars per annum. And that's, you know, comparable

[00:57:13] to the amount that was actually spent, uh, in a given year, uh, to, to tackle the great recession.

[00:57:23] Right. How about the bailout of the banks? What do we spend on that? Or what do we spend on the,

[00:57:27] the wars of the last 25 years? Right. If we look at priorities, if we look at priorities, right.

[00:57:33] Yeah. Yeah. So this can be, be funded and actually accomplished. I mean, that's one of the pushbacks

[00:57:38] that we, you know, we get is, well, how, how are we going to, how can we possibly pay for it? So it

[00:57:42] seems like it's more a matter of, of will and priorities than anything else. Right. Yes.

[00:57:46] The, the one thing I like at the very end of, uh, from here to equality is where you,

[00:57:50] you quote from Frederick Douglass on the subject of, you know, uh, America could never do enough

[00:57:56] ever to repay black Americans. But like you say in the book, by all means, we should do as much as

[00:58:03] possible. Right. It's like the lawyer goes to the jury, uh, in a, in a really bad case and says,

[00:58:08] look, you know, nothing could compensate my client for what they've been through the loss of their

[00:58:13] loved ones, but money is all we have. So go do your thing, you know, and that's, that's how it goes.

[00:58:20] So, uh, I think that's a really important point that we, we don't want to get lost in distractions

[00:58:24] or the reasons why not. Um, this is a gigantic subject that is long overdue and, uh, time's wasting,

[00:58:31] right? I think that Frederick, the objective that Frederick Douglass was seeking was full

[00:58:37] citizenship rights for black American descendants of us slavery. And that is a battle that is still

[00:58:44] being waged today. And it's a worthy battle and one that can be won as Tony said, when we have the will

[00:58:53] and as Adam said, when we, you know, put our minds to it, when we, um, you know, recognize the power

[00:58:59] that we have, I always say to audiences, um, you know, the will is a muscle and you have to use it.

[00:59:09] I think it's really important for us to remember all of the people who have fought and struggled

[00:59:15] for us to be where we are today and how essential it is for us to honor their lives, to honor their

[00:59:26] sacrifice and to do what we can to move this issue forward. Powerful, powerful. One other thought about

[00:59:36] Frederick Douglass, I think initially Frederick Douglass was opposed to the, uh, 40 acres land grant

[00:59:45] scheme. But I think by the 1880s, he said, I made a mistake that that really would have transformed

[00:59:54] the conditions of our people. And so, uh, he ultimately became an advocate of some form of

[01:00:01] reparations. Last question for me for, for both of you is, um, how hopeful are you that we will see

[01:00:06] meaningful reparations in our lifetime? I'm very hopeful. Yeah. Um, she's younger than I am.

[01:00:18] You know, I, I spent the first many years of my life in, uh, a segregated, uh, world.

[01:00:28] Mm-hmm. And, uh, there have been phenomenal changes that I have witnessed, um, that I was a part of.

[01:00:38] And, um, the momentum I think is building. So yes, I am hopeful. Um, but it's not something that I

[01:00:48] do passively or that I suggest anyone else do passively. It's not something that you're going to

[01:00:55] wake up and read about it having happened. I mean, it's something that you have to engage in.

[01:01:01] And I think that is a message that I really want to share, you know, with your listeners that we all

[01:01:07] have a role to play. And it's important for us to seize this moment, seize the day, um, conduct research,

[01:01:17] um, create reading groups, uh, and talk about these issues and figure out what are the things you need to do

[01:01:23] locally. So for example, um, our city council passed, uh, a resolution unanimously advocating for federal

[01:01:31] operations project. Uh, that's something, you know, that one could do, uh, you know, your, your family

[01:01:38] could, could have a resolution. The folks on your job could have a resolution. Your artisanal beer

[01:01:44] collective could have a resolution. Uh, you know, your ultimate Frisbee group could have a resolution.

[01:01:51] Yeah. But get accustomed to talking about these issues, uh, you know, reach the point where these

[01:01:58] terms roll over your tongue without any difficulty, uh, so that you can break it down, uh, for friends

[01:02:06] and family and explain how you came to think the way you do, but, you know, also listen to their issues.

[01:02:12] We're asking folks to become engaged in the conversation and do what you can to move the

[01:02:20] conversation further, but also to deepen your involvement with the political life of your

[01:02:26] community. Yeah. I'd also like to see, um, these resolutions accompanied by some muscle.

[01:02:35] Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is what's really needed is an intensive effort to lobby and petition

[01:02:44] the United States Congress for a comprehensive reparations plan and to elect, uh, officials to

[01:02:53] Congress who will support a comprehensive reparations plan. Yes. Yes, indeed. Wow. You know, I,

[01:02:59] I, I just want to say, uh, we are extremely grateful for your generosity with your time and your,

[01:03:06] and your thoughts. And, you know, I need to tell you that you guys have been such an inspiration

[01:03:10] for me. And I think for us in launching our project, you are the leaders you, you are,

[01:03:16] you've been doing the deep work for so long. For a long time. Yeah. And, and you're the thought

[01:03:19] leaders. And when we hear terms like generational wealth being spoken of, not casually, but in context

[01:03:27] and, and, and well, uh, you know, we have, we have you to thank. And, and so I, I know our goal here

[01:03:33] with pay the tab is to try to shine a little light of our own as best we can. And, um, shining a light

[01:03:39] of truth is really, I think what we're all, uh, engaged in and trying to do our best and you all are

[01:03:45] the leaders. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And, and we, thank you. We will continue to be part of

[01:03:49] this community. We will continue to follow you. Um, just as a quick aside, Adam and I are co-teaching a

[01:03:54] reparations class at UCLA law school. Um, and that would not have happened, but, but for you.

[01:04:00] Wow. Yeah. So, so, so, so we, we appreciate what, like Adam said, all that you've done and

[01:04:06] continue to do. And we are so, uh, energized and excited, um, to be able to, um, follow, you know,

[01:04:16] follow and, and, and, you know, learn from you and to take what you're putting out there and try to

[01:04:20] actualize that in the world. So, so thank you very much for serving as that example. Really appreciate it.

[01:04:24] You're welcome. Thanks. Thanks so much for having us on. This is great. Yeah. All right. Y'all take

[01:04:29] care. You guys take care. So whenever you see interviews with Darity and Mullen in the media,

[01:04:37] there's always a very big reaction to the amount of money that they're talking about, right? That's

[01:04:42] kind of the obsession. Oh my gosh. Right. All they want to talk about. Right. Um, and you know,

[01:04:49] it is an insane amount of money. It's, it's hard to wrap our heads around $16 trillion. Yes.

[01:04:55] But you know, we need to do this as a society. We need to digest this. And, and they are sort of

[01:05:01] forcing us to look at the scope of the atrocities. Like they say, there's lots of other financial

[01:05:08] harms. Black people have had labor stolen, have had, you know, atrocities done to them. But the racial

[01:05:15] wealth gap by focusing on that, that is really just the current measurable difference for black America

[01:05:22] based on all of these things the government has done. Right. So when, yeah, so when we're talking

[01:05:26] about reparations, you know, let's not get it twisted. We're not talking about some handout or

[01:05:31] some, you know, nice, you know, you know, charitable, you know, contribution, you know,

[01:05:36] we're talking about a debt that was created through criminal activity on behalf of our United States

[01:05:43] government crimes against humanity from the very start. Absolutely. From the very start, you know,

[01:05:47] stolen labor, stolen wealth, stolen freedom. There's, there's a, there's a price to be paid

[01:05:53] for that. Right. And we have not done that yet. Yep. And you know, even if the $16 trillion is not

[01:05:59] going to be paid tomorrow, it's still critical to push it out there and to do what they're doing.

[01:06:04] I mean, they are forcing us to look at what has happened and what it has cost. And we need that

[01:06:10] perspective as a country, right? If we don't start with that, we're never going to get off the ground.

[01:06:13] It is true that their main focus is on the money. Right. But yeah, but it's also true that,

[01:06:20] you know, they're in agreement that is vital and important that we first know our history.

[01:06:25] Absolutely. Right. There has to be an educational component as to why reparations are due before we

[01:06:30] get to paying the reparations. Definitely. Yeah. And I really appreciate that about,

[01:06:34] about their work is they, they patiently lay out the history and say, we need to know these things.

[01:06:39] This is why reparations are due way before we even get, get out the calculators. Yes. Yeah. And

[01:06:45] one thing that I'm not totally sure about, you know, they, they talk about how by paying this amount of

[01:06:53] money and bridging the racial wealth gap, black Americans can be sort of brought into the political

[01:06:58] process and it will have more power to avoid future racist structures. And, you know, I,

[01:07:06] I'm not totally clear on how we go about dismantling the race, the racist structures of our country under

[01:07:12] this plan. And I guess what they seem to be saying is, look, that's not our agenda.

[01:07:16] Yeah. I do think that that's what they're saying is that they, they agree with that,

[01:07:20] but that's not what their focus on. Yeah. And I think they are supportive of those reparations

[01:07:27] scholars and activists and organizers that are pushing in that direction. Can't be mad at them for

[01:07:31] staying in their lane and doing the great work that they're doing, even if it's not all encompassing.

[01:07:36] Yeah. And I, and I do love this position of like, of the transforming power of money,

[01:07:42] which, you know, can, can do a lot of things. It can pay off a lot of debts. It can buy some

[01:07:47] much needed things. It can, you know, in our country, boy, to, to even just go to the doctor

[01:07:52] or to, to go get an education or everything requires all your own money.

[01:07:56] All that.

[01:07:57] So yeah, it's, uh, it's huge. And I like how they're, they don't apologize about,

[01:08:02] about any of it and how this is, this is owed and it's life changing. And what about it? You know?

[01:08:07] Yeah. But Adam is good news, right? There's, there's some hope for the future, right?

[01:08:11] Yeah. There's a lot of hope for the future. And, you know, I might not feel like that

[01:08:14] right now, but, but as they point out, you know, the polls in recent years have been trending,

[01:08:20] uh, very strongly in favor of reparations of cash reparations for black Americans.

[01:08:25] Yes. Um, especially big changes among white Americans. It's gone from single digits to well

[01:08:31] into double digits and, uh, yeah. Right. So there's, uh, the, in terms of the public awareness,

[01:08:36] people are more aware of these issues, generational wealth, all this stuff.

[01:08:41] More, more aware and more in favor of, um, across all categories, black folks, white folks,

[01:08:47] young people, especially right. Young, uh, so young white folks under 30, um, more than half

[01:08:53] of them are in favor of reparations. Yeah. That's a huge change. Yeah. And really shows

[01:08:57] you the power of conversations about this, right? Because it's not like things have suddenly gotten

[01:09:03] different, right? Nothing's ever been done. Other than more people are aware. Yeah. Right.

[01:09:07] And more conversations are, are taking place. You know, we, we can't have this episode without

[01:09:12] speaking to the elephant in the room, which is, well, what about the recent election? Yep.

[01:09:16] And how might this impact, uh, the movement for reparations? So what about it? Yeah. What about

[01:09:21] it? You know, it's like, you know, like not, not to be deterred, right? Not can't stop. Can't stop

[01:09:25] now. Uh, if, if anything, we need to dig in even more, be more resolved, more engaged, have more

[01:09:32] conversations. Um, you know, what I've been telling myself and in some of our students, uh, is

[01:09:37] whatever was important a month ago is that much more important now. Absolutely. Whatever it is,

[01:09:43] whatever it is. Yes. Uh, and certainly the, the fight for reparations, the movement for reparations

[01:09:47] is even more vital and more critical now than it was a month ago. And the fact that we may not,

[01:09:53] don't have the support in the president's office, in the Senate, in the, in the house of

[01:09:59] representatives, didn't have it before either. Didn't really have it. So, so like, let's not,

[01:10:03] let's not be fooled. Right. Right. Let's not act like, you know, let's not trip and act like

[01:10:07] it's a whole new, new ball game. You know, things may be more difficult. Yeah. Okay. But we've

[01:10:12] done difficult before. Um, and so now's not the time to be shy. Now's not the time to be timid.

[01:10:16] Now's the time to continue to speak out, double down, double down, organize, um, be powerful.

[01:10:22] That's what we've had to do throughout, you know, our time here. Let's, let's keep doing that.

[01:10:27] Yeah. Like I always say, we can't predict the future. We don't know what might lead to what

[01:10:30] there may be actually more of an audience for reparations in the near future based on whatever

[01:10:36] the hell is about to happen. Absolutely. And another thing I really liked that Kirsten Mullen said is,

[01:10:42] you know, part of our work is to be ready is to be ready when the moment strikes,

[01:10:46] people never dreamed that slavery could be abolished. Right. Right. For all those centuries

[01:10:51] that it went on, people never believed that, you know, women will get the right to vote.

[01:10:55] Black people would have the right to vote. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, so there were,

[01:10:59] there were a lot of things that, you know, movements, uh, kept at it and were ready. And when

[01:11:03] the time was right, they jumped on it. And she's, I think spot on when she says the call to action

[01:11:09] is talk to your people, keep these conversations out there, learn more, spread it, learn more,

[01:11:14] spread it. This is what it's about. And the time is always now. Exactly. You know,

[01:11:19] James Baldwin, you know, challenges in the moment, you know, the moment is always now.

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