#18 - The Negro Leagues: It’s Past Time for America’s Pastime to Make Reparations

[00:00:00] Gotta pay the tab. You gotta pay the tab!

[00:00:16] Hi, I'm Tony Tolbert. And I'm Adam Radinsky. Welcome to Pay the Tab, where we make the case for reparations, one story at a time. Each episode, we expose the story of racial injustice. Then we explore creative ways to make it right. It's been long enough, America. It's time to pay the tab.

[00:00:37] So, Tony, we both grew up baseball fans as little kids in the 60s and 70s. Yes. You were, I know, a Dodger fan? Go Dodger Blue, yes.

[00:00:46] Very lucky for you. I grew up a Chicago Cubs fan, which was thoroughly depressing.

[00:00:51] That was rough.

[00:00:52] Very rough. But, you know, one thing I noticed very early was that it seemed like the biggest stars in the game were black.

[00:01:00] Most of them were.

[00:01:02] Yeah, like a conspicuous number. MVPs and just the best players. And what was weird was I, you know, I started reading a lot of books about baseball, magazines,

[00:01:14] got deep into trying to learn the history. And, you know, the players they called the all-time greats were all white players.

[00:01:23] Almost always white. Babe Ruth, you know, Lou Gehrig.

[00:01:27] Yeah. Ty Cobb.

[00:01:28] Yeah. All those guys. There's all this grainy black and white photographs and even some footage of them playing. And it was weird. It was like, what's going on here? And I know that your dad taught you a lot of this history, but I never knew at all, which was that there was a whole separate world of top-level baseball being played in the old days way before our time.

[00:01:52] Yeah. My dad was a sports trivia nut and a historian. We would drive around and he would quiz me on all kinds of sports trivia and other, you know, other trivia as well.

[00:02:03] I could picture that. Yeah.

[00:02:04] Yeah, for sure. For sure. But I vividly remember learning about the Negro baseball leagues when I was, you know, a kid.

[00:02:12] Yeah. And that's something that was kept a secret from white fans and most black fans, you know, the mainstream media did not tell us about the Negro leagues.

[00:02:23] Not at all.

[00:02:23] You know, come to find out there's this whole separate world of baseball with all black players who were shut out of the major leagues and had to make their own leagues.

[00:02:32] And there's some amazing baseball being played, right?

[00:02:35] Yeah. So let's dive into the Negro leagues. They were founded in 1920 by Rube Foster, who became known as the father of black baseball. He started with the Negro National League. He himself was an outstanding pitcher and a manager. And he also owned the Chicago American Giants, which was one of the most storied franchises in Negro leagues history.

[00:02:56] Mm hmm. And one of the things that separated the Negro leagues from major league baseball was just the brand of a brand of ball. It was, you know, more daring, more exciting. They had great players. They were drawing huge crowds.

[00:03:10] And not only were the games sort of a sporting event, but they were also a cultural event. Yeah. Like it was it was the place to see and be seen. So jump to 1933.

[00:03:19] There was a new Negro National League that was founded along with the addition of the Negro American League. And that thrived. It thrived all the way up through integration, baseball integration in 1947 when it when MLB finally relented.

[00:03:37] Good news and bad news. Right. The good news is that black ball players were finally able to join major league baseball. Mm hmm. Right. And earn major league baseball salaries.

[00:03:46] The bad news is that it's you know, it's acted as a drain of talent from the Negro leagues. Right. 19. Yeah. 1948. The leagues, you know, disbanded effectively, even though it limped along for a few more years after that.

[00:04:00] Mm hmm. You know, 1948 really marked the end of the Negro leagues as they were known. Yeah. And something that I think almost nobody knows is that before baseball got segregated that way, way, way back in the 1800s, it was actually integrated.

[00:04:14] It was. And you had these great players, black players who were playing on mostly white teams.

[00:04:19] A guy named Bud Fowler in the 1870s, Moses Fleetwood Walker and his brother Weldy Walker in the 1880s.

[00:04:28] And it was actually a conscious decision by the baseball white owners to exclude black players. Right.

[00:04:36] It was very deliberate. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

[00:04:38] At the peak of like, you know, eugenics and all this like rebirth of white supremacy sweeping across the power structure of white America.

[00:04:47] And they made a decision and they were just not going to allow black players. Right.

[00:04:51] So for more than half a century, major league baseball was all white.

[00:04:56] And, you know, it was not until, like you say, 1947, when Jackie Robinson broke in with the Dodgers that started what was actually a very slow process.

[00:05:05] Right. Of integration. Yeah. Slow trickle. But that's where it started.

[00:05:10] That this year, 2024, is historic in the sense that it marks the 100th anniversary of the first Negro League World Series.

[00:05:18] Right. So we're excited about today's episode.

[00:05:20] Another another key moment this year was that the Negro League statistics were integrated with Major League Baseball.

[00:05:28] Yeah. Yeah. That was a big deal. Big deal. Big deal.

[00:05:31] And just as one example, you know, now five out of the top 10 all time Major League Baseball hitters were Negro Leaguers.

[00:05:39] Five out of 10. Yeah. Five out of 10. Right. So half of the top 10.

[00:05:43] But in terms of batting average were players from the Negro Leagues.

[00:05:46] Yeah. And Josh Gibson is the all time batting champion. Right.

[00:05:49] He actually is. Yeah. Yeah. So that's you know, that's that's awesome.

[00:05:52] It just goes to show the talent that was that was there.

[00:05:54] So this is a good first step. But let's, you know, be mindful that it's only a first step. Right.

[00:06:00] Oh, yeah. Now, you know, now we need to get down to the business of making full reparations to players and their and their families.

[00:06:07] So we have a great episode today. We have two incredible guests for you.

[00:06:11] We're going to talk to Bill Greeson. He just turned 100 years old and he's one of only two living players from the Negro Leagues who's still around.

[00:06:21] He also played in the Major Leagues for the St. Louis Cardinals.

[00:06:25] He was the second black player ever on the Cardinals.

[00:06:28] So he's played with both black and white baseball players.

[00:06:31] And he really tells it like it is when he talked to us.

[00:06:34] And just a small spoiler alert, having played with both black and white players, his opinion, you know, overall, the white players may be not as good.

[00:06:43] We're also going to talk to Larry Lester.

[00:06:45] Larry is a historian, author, and for over 40 years, he's been a fighter for truth and recognition for Negro League players.

[00:06:51] He tells us about his heroic efforts as a baseball detective going around, digging up the clues and putting together the truth about the history of the Negro Leagues.

[00:06:59] And like Tony said, just in the news this year, the Negro League stats were integrated with the Major League stats.

[00:07:06] And Larry Lester was the main guy who helped make that happen.

[00:07:10] Finally today, Tony and I are going to roll up our sleeves, get out our calculators, and we're going to break down what the tab is for reparations to Negro League players.

[00:07:20] There is a number.

[00:07:21] We're going to unveil that number.

[00:07:23] And it's, let's just say, well within the reach of the billionaires who own today's Major League Baseball teams.

[00:07:31] We are really delighted to have with us Reverend Bill Greeson, who's the oldest living Negro Leaguer, just turned 100.

[00:07:41] And as one of only two remaining folks from the Negro Leagues, along with Ron Teasley.

[00:07:46] He was a standout pitcher for the Birmingham Black Barons in the late 40s and early 50s.

[00:07:52] Interesting fact, he served as a mentor to Willie Mays while both of them played for the Black Barons.

[00:07:57] Not only was he the first Black pitcher for the St. Louis Cardinals, he was also one of the first Black Marines in U.S. history.

[00:08:03] Right.

[00:08:04] For the past 50 plus years, he served at a pastor at a church in Birmingham where he, believe it or not, still gives a sermon most Sundays.

[00:08:12] Yeah, it's unbelievable.

[00:08:13] It is unbelievable.

[00:08:15] And we're thrilled to have him joining us today from Birmingham.

[00:08:18] Hello.

[00:08:19] Reverend Greeson.

[00:08:20] Yes, sir.

[00:08:22] Hello, sir.

[00:08:22] My name is Tony Tolvards, and I'm here with my buddy Adam, Adam Radinsky.

[00:08:28] We're here in Los Angeles.

[00:08:30] My name is Bill Greeson.

[00:08:32] I'm here in Birmingham, Alabama.

[00:08:35] All right.

[00:08:36] All right.

[00:08:36] Well, it is such a pleasure and honor to have this opportunity to speak with you, and we appreciate you making time.

[00:08:43] We know that you're busy.

[00:08:44] A lot of people are tugging at you, so we can't tell you how much we appreciate you making time for us.

[00:08:49] All right.

[00:08:51] All right.

[00:08:52] And before we start, belated happy birthday.

[00:08:54] That's a beautiful thing.

[00:08:57] My mother just turned 91.

[00:08:59] She's from Arkansas, so she's gaining on you, but she's not there quite yet.

[00:09:03] So congratulations on that.

[00:09:05] You think she'll catch me?

[00:09:08] Oh, no.

[00:09:09] So first, you know, we're going to talk about a few different things, but we want to start with your playing career.

[00:09:15] And, you know, we know that you were one of the best pitchers in the Negro Leagues during your time, and particularly with the Birmingham Black Barons, right, in 1948 to 1951.

[00:09:26] And if you could just give us an idea of kind of what that was like.

[00:09:32] What was it, you know, what was it like for you being a Negro League pitching star?

[00:09:36] Well, it was a blessing to have been chosen by the Birmingham Black Barons.

[00:09:40] I had played a little amateur ball before that time, and so they came to Asheville one night, and they busted out the best pitchers, and they put me in.

[00:09:53] And for the next seven innings, it was zero.

[00:09:56] This is Adam.

[00:09:57] I wanted to ask you a little bit about your first year on the Black Barons in 1948.

[00:10:03] The newspapers were calling you the whiz kid, and you were in some real pressure cooker games, right, with the league championship game and one of the World Series games as well.

[00:10:15] It sounds like you won two really big games for the team.

[00:10:18] And can you tell us what it was like pitching in those games with all of that pressure and exposure?

[00:10:27] Well, you call it pressure.

[00:10:29] You know, when you believe in yourself, you don't worry about pressure.

[00:10:33] You just go on and do what you have to do.

[00:10:36] Let me just ask you, like, going back, what life was like on the road for you guys, because, you know, we've heard it was super tough with, you know,

[00:10:44] traveling to all different places and making the arrangements for sleeping and getting meals and other things you had to navigate.

[00:10:52] Can you just give us a feel for what life was like for you on the road then?

[00:10:56] Well, you know what it's like.

[00:10:59] You can imagine what it was like all over the world where whites seemed to be superior to everything, to blacks, to keep them down.

[00:11:10] That started way back down.

[00:11:13] And it didn't stop when we started playing baseball.

[00:11:17] In fact, it became more relevant.

[00:11:19] So moving into the major leagues, right, we know you were the first black pitcher for the St. Louis Cardinals in 1954,

[00:11:28] and I guess the second black player that they had all together.

[00:11:32] So at the time, what did that mean to you?

[00:11:36] Did it have any particular meaning to you at the time?

[00:11:39] No, I just believed I could function in wherever I was.

[00:11:45] I thought I had some really good stuff, and I didn't worry about it.

[00:11:49] But when you're the only black on the team and everybody's eyes on you, it's a different thing.

[00:11:57] When I went a long time before Eddie Stegger decided to put me in a game,

[00:12:03] and when you haven't touched a ball, it couldn't even play catch with any of the white boys.

[00:12:10] So I just had this run and sat around, and that was a terrible thing, you know.

[00:12:18] And I remember one night in Philadelphia, Stinky had me pitch bad and practice, and my control was not too good.

[00:12:29] And he came out and could get the damn ball over the plate.

[00:12:36] I said, what the hell, you think I got a string on it?

[00:12:39] Right, right.

[00:12:41] Being from Alabama and a black talker to a white like that.

[00:12:45] He didn't appreciate that, huh?

[00:12:48] Oh, black from Alabama, white.

[00:12:54] Boy, isn't this something?

[00:12:57] Right, right.

[00:12:57] I didn't get involved with me.

[00:12:59] And I was satisfied that I made it to the majors, and everything went well with me as far as my giving the best that I had.

[00:13:10] That's great.

[00:13:11] That's great.

[00:13:12] And you mentioned that it was difficult, you know, with the other, your white teammates, right?

[00:13:19] And we read somewhere that it took you two to three weeks before you could find someone to even play catch with.

[00:13:25] Is that right?

[00:13:26] That's right.

[00:13:27] Yes, sir.

[00:13:29] And I just run each and every day, and I didn't have anybody to even play catch with me.

[00:13:37] But it was difficult at that time to try to maintain what you had.

[00:13:44] In society at that time, so this is after you stopped playing, we know you experienced all kinds of, you know, really difficult situations and conditions in Birmingham and other places.

[00:14:02] But one of the things that we found out in our research is that you worked doing delivery for a department store, right, in Birmingham.

[00:14:10] This department store.

[00:14:12] Okay, right.

[00:14:13] And we saw that on your route and delivering, you would see the KKK patrolling the streets.

[00:14:22] Is that true?

[00:14:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:14:24] There was nothing new.

[00:14:25] In fact, where I live, coming from the store, I had to come to a place called Midfield, and it was a large field that they had, and sometimes at night, you know, they would be meeting.

[00:14:43] And the first time that I came through there, and I saw them, the hoods and everything on, and I didn't think about no weapon or nothing.

[00:14:53] But the next time I did, and I put them in my car, and I had to come right through where they were meeting.

[00:15:03] And I said, if any of them try to hurt me, I'm going to hurt somebody before I go home.

[00:15:09] Okay.

[00:15:10] Right, right.

[00:15:11] And, you know, we also know that you are a longtime member of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham.

[00:15:20] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:20] You know, infamous for the four little girls, you know, black girls who were killed in a bombing by the Klan in 1963.

[00:15:28] You know, you were not in service that day.

[00:15:31] You were out of town.

[00:15:33] But just generally, what can you share about the conditions that you faced and other black Americans faced, you know, during that period of segregation and racial discrimination?

[00:15:44] Well, you know what, you know how it was.

[00:15:48] You know, you were not included, not thought of being who you were.

[00:15:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:57] And we learned to live with that.

[00:16:01] I didn't have any problem being separated from other people because growing up, you know, I was born in Atlanta.

[00:16:10] Right.

[00:16:11] And we used to live right across the street from Dr. Martin Luther King on Auburn Avenue.

[00:16:20] And then going back to your service in the military, we understand you were one of the very first black Americans to serve in the Marines.

[00:16:28] Can you give us a sense of what that was like?

[00:16:30] And that was segregated as well, right?

[00:16:32] The military was segregated, you know, black and white troops.

[00:16:35] Can you give us a sense of what that was like?

[00:16:37] We had to prove that we could serve in the military.

[00:16:43] It was a blessing for me to have been chosen out of the 500 or more that was inducted when I went in there.

[00:16:52] They chose nine of us.

[00:16:55] And I knew I was representing our people.

[00:17:01] Some people say that the quality of play in the Negro Leagues was not on the same level as in Major Leagues at that time.

[00:17:08] What do you say to that?

[00:17:10] Their playing was not like ours.

[00:17:13] Uh-huh.

[00:17:16] Our playing was superb.

[00:17:20] Uh-huh.

[00:17:21] It was superb.

[00:17:23] Pitching and hitting and running and base running and all of that stuff.

[00:17:28] Uh-huh.

[00:17:29] And in the white leagues, when they were playing, they didn't have the challenges that we had.

[00:17:37] We had to sometimes sleep outdoors.

[00:17:41] Uh-huh.

[00:17:43] When we went to a different town to play because it was a bad hotel and, you know, you couldn't stay in the white one.

[00:17:52] Right.

[00:17:52] But sometimes we'd sleep outside.

[00:17:54] Uh-huh.

[00:17:55] But then on the day we go to that ballpark, we did a great job.

[00:18:00] They didn't have but a few whites that stood out in the, with the white team.

[00:18:07] But in our leagues, every team there was a good team.

[00:18:15] Uh-huh.

[00:18:16] Uh-huh.

[00:18:16] And could challenge any Major League team.

[00:18:20] Willie Mays and I became good friends when we started.

[00:18:23] Both of us were rookies.

[00:18:28] And he came in.

[00:18:29] He was ready for the majors after the first year.

[00:18:33] Speaking of Willie Mays, who we know just passed this year.

[00:18:36] And he came up when he was 17, right?

[00:18:38] And you were both rookies at the same time.

[00:18:41] Right.

[00:18:42] But we just learned that you had a very important role as his mentor when he was playing.

[00:18:47] And we saw where he was quoted as saying that you were always careful to help him out when you could without calling attention to what you were doing.

[00:18:55] And you gave him a lot of respect at such a young age.

[00:18:58] And that had a big effect on him.

[00:19:00] Does that sound right about your relationship?

[00:19:03] Yeah, that's about right.

[00:19:04] Because I didn't seek any recognition.

[00:19:07] Sometime when Willie would go out and go 0-4, he would be a little down.

[00:19:12] No, no, no.

[00:19:13] You're just catching the ball.

[00:19:16] And that hitting would come.

[00:19:18] And it did come.

[00:19:19] And it came in a marvelous way.

[00:19:21] We won pennant.

[00:19:23] We played in the championship game.

[00:19:25] We played in the all-star game.

[00:19:28] So we had no regrets.

[00:19:30] We proved that we could play in the majors.

[00:19:33] And be among some of the best that was out there.

[00:19:38] When you think about the white and black league, you only think of just a few whites who really stood out.

[00:19:46] In the Negro Leagues, every team that was in the league had stars on it.

[00:19:54] And it was a blessing to have them among those.

[00:19:57] One of the main things that Adam and I are trying to do is advocate, you know, to argue for money to be paid to descendants of Negro Leaguers who missed out on opportunities of playing in Major League Baseball.

[00:20:13] You know, children and grandchildren and things like that.

[00:20:16] What are your thoughts about that, of Major League Baseball paying money to descendants of Negro Leaguers who weren't able to play in Major League Baseball?

[00:20:23] It would be a tremendous blessing to all of us who are still here.

[00:20:30] And other children of those who played and didn't receive what they were supposed to.

[00:20:38] We proved that we could play in.

[00:20:41] We did it.

[00:20:43] And it was shown when we started integrating black ball players in every part of baseball stood out in hitting, pitching.

[00:20:56] I'm not angry with anybody.

[00:20:59] You want to send me some money?

[00:21:01] Send it on down.

[00:21:03] You won't be mad about that, right?

[00:21:05] No, no, no, no, no.

[00:21:08] Send it on down.

[00:21:10] I'll take it.

[00:21:12] Right.

[00:21:13] But it sounds like you agree, though, that that would be the right thing to do, right?

[00:21:17] That it's deserving, right?

[00:21:19] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[00:21:21] Sure.

[00:21:23] Amen.

[00:21:25] Amen to that.

[00:21:26] Yeah.

[00:21:28] Right.

[00:21:29] Just a couple of fun questions.

[00:21:31] We know you're on record as saying that Willie Mays is the best baseball player ever.

[00:21:37] Yes.

[00:21:37] If you had to pick the next two, who would you say would be the next two behind Willie Mays?

[00:21:44] Bob Gibson and Roberto Clemente.

[00:21:47] Okay.

[00:21:48] All right.

[00:21:49] Yeah.

[00:21:50] Hard to argue with that.

[00:21:51] But I gave it the best I had, so I just thank God for that.

[00:21:56] Thank you.

[00:21:57] Yes, sir.

[00:21:58] You gave it the best you had, and you serve as a living example of, you know, what it means to persevere

[00:22:04] and just keep moving through, you know, despite the circumstances and situations.

[00:22:09] So we applaud you for that and appreciate you and can't thank you enough for making time to be in conversation with us.

[00:22:17] Yeah.

[00:22:17] Reverend Griesman, we really appreciate your time.

[00:22:20] And it's very generous of you to spend some time with us, and this is very, very beautiful stuff.

[00:22:25] Thank you so much for recognizing me.

[00:22:28] I appreciate you all thinking about me.

[00:22:34] We are thrilled to have on the show today Larry Lester.

[00:22:37] Larry co-founded the Negro Leagues Museum in Kansas City, Missouri.

[00:22:42] He's written several books about black history, and he's a contributing researcher to more than 200 books on sports history.

[00:22:48] Larry is a lifelong baseball detective digging up the truth about our past,

[00:22:53] and he was a key consultant to Major League Baseball in its recent project

[00:22:57] to incorporate the statistics from the Negro Leagues into the baseball record books.

[00:23:01] Larry is a tireless advocate for recognition and justice for the Negro League players.

[00:23:06] We had a great talk with him about his obsession with digging up the truth,

[00:23:09] and he's just a great guy, and we learned a lot from him.

[00:23:13] He spoke with us from his home in Kansas City, and we hope you enjoy our conversation.

[00:23:18] Larry Lester, welcome to Pay the Tab.

[00:23:20] Adam and I are thrilled to host you today.

[00:23:23] We've been looking forward to this for a long time.

[00:23:26] We've actually had an episode on the Negro Leagues on our minds from the beginning,

[00:23:31] before we even started the podcast, quite honestly.

[00:23:34] And we're both also history buffs.

[00:23:36] Adam actually majored in history in college, so this is just a great story.

[00:23:39] A real thrill for us to welcome you to Pay the Tab.

[00:23:43] So thank you for joining us today.

[00:23:44] My pleasure, Tony and Adam, to be on your show, Pay the Tab.

[00:23:49] 1947, when your hero and many of our heroes, Jackie Robinson, broke the color barrier, right?

[00:23:57] Brooklyn Dodgers signed him, brought him up.

[00:24:00] And, you know, we know that change of any sort never comes easy, but particularly when it is regarding, you know, race in America.

[00:24:08] You've talked and researched and written about the long years of pressure that was applied by black press and various organizers to bring down that wall.

[00:24:18] Can you give us a little bit of a backdrop on that?

[00:24:22] We're in the 40s.

[00:24:23] We were in World War II, and many of the black sports writers were advocating for the admission and integration of black players into Major League Baseball.

[00:24:35] Well, Wendell Smith had a campaign called the Double V Campaign.

[00:24:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:40] The Double V stood for victory abroad and victory at home.

[00:24:46] We want to fight Nazism abroad and racism at home.

[00:24:50] Right.

[00:24:50] The blood on the battlefield is all the same color.

[00:24:53] So why are they being separated?

[00:24:55] These men are qualified to stop bullets on the battlefield, but not qualified to stop baseballs on the playing field.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:03] This is hypocrisy in its fullest form.

[00:25:07] At the highest level.

[00:25:08] Exactly.

[00:25:09] Yeah.

[00:25:09] And so this set the stage.

[00:25:13] The black teams were ready for integration.

[00:25:15] I mean, we look at the 1941 and 1943 East-West All-Star Game.

[00:25:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:20] They drew over 50,000 people.

[00:25:22] And the white owners were seeing there's a lot of money in black baseball.

[00:25:27] Fans, both black and white, wanted to see a more up-temple, more energized, more exciting brand of baseball.

[00:25:33] Yeah.

[00:25:34] So that was the precursor for historical change in 1947.

[00:25:38] We have to tell folks there's big news this summer in the baseball world that the Negro Leagues statistics finally got integrated with Major League Baseball statistics.

[00:25:50] And we know you played a key role in that.

[00:25:52] We want to jump into that in a minute.

[00:25:54] But, you know, I think folks need to realize why statistics are so important in baseball, right?

[00:26:00] I mean, baseball fans are obsessed with statistics.

[00:26:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:03] We memorize them, you know, we grow up hearing about the all-time greats and the records, the single season records and all this stuff.

[00:26:12] Now that the Negro Leagues statistics are being recognized at long last, it's kind of shaking up the record books a little bit, right?

[00:26:19] Maybe you can give us just a little sense of, you know, what role you played in the actual integration efforts of the stats this year.

[00:26:27] And then also, you know, what your process has been like.

[00:26:31] Well, Adam, I spent probably the last 40 years mining data from black newspapers.

[00:26:38] As a young man, I was always curious.

[00:26:41] How can I justify, quantify the greatness of these black athletes that I hear these stories about, these embellished truths, these fantasy tales?

[00:26:53] I hear that Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige are great, but I cannot quantify it.

[00:26:58] And so I started before there was the internet to copy every box score I could find out of black newspapers.

[00:27:06] And so I would take my dimes down to the public library and make a copy of every box score I could find.

[00:27:12] And I would use interlibrary loan to get microfilm copies of other black newspapers from other cities like the Pittsburgh Carrier, Chicago Defender, New York Amsterdam News, New York Age.

[00:27:24] Yeah, I think we heard you had something like 400 different black newspapers that you drew from with your research, right?

[00:27:30] That's crazy.

[00:27:31] So it took a lot of effort.

[00:27:34] There's still no app or software today that they can scan a box score.

[00:27:38] I think you are the app, right?

[00:27:41] Yes.

[00:27:41] I understand it.

[00:27:42] You have a big background in IT.

[00:27:44] So all these stars kind of came together here, right?

[00:27:48] Definitely.

[00:27:49] I created a database and access, Microsoft Access, and start manually inputting every line, every hit, every run, every strikeout, every walk, line by line.

[00:28:00] It takes me about 30 minutes to input one box score.

[00:28:04] And hold on, because correct me if I'm wrong, but we've read that you have gathered more than 16,000 hard copies of baseball box scores like you're talking about, and it took up 25 file cabinets in your house.

[00:28:19] Is that all right?

[00:28:21] Yes, it is.

[00:28:22] That's incredible.

[00:28:23] Wow.

[00:28:24] Yeah, I think it takes a certain level of obsession, right, to get to the truth and to get some of these valuable things.

[00:28:31] That's amazing.

[00:28:31] A certain level.

[00:28:34] Right.

[00:28:35] It's off the chart.

[00:28:35] I never did it for recognition.

[00:28:37] I want to make that clear.

[00:28:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:39] No, no.

[00:28:39] I wanted to know the answer because stats start conversations.

[00:28:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:45] And when I go into the pool hall or the barbershop or the juke joint or at your home and I want to say my guy is better than your guy, I want to be able to-

[00:28:56] Back it up.

[00:28:56] Back it up with stats.

[00:28:58] He won this number of championships.

[00:29:00] That's right.

[00:29:00] He hit this many home runs.

[00:29:01] Yes.

[00:29:01] He struck out this many batters.

[00:29:03] He threw this many no-hitters.

[00:29:05] Right, right.

[00:29:05] What did your guy do?

[00:29:07] Exactly.

[00:29:08] Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:09] Well, there's another angle that we saw in a USA Today piece recently where your numbers were quoted where there was basically an op-ed that was saying, hey, you know, we need to pay these former players partly just for the discrepancies in pay.

[00:29:23] And it was crazy some of the numbers you came up with.

[00:29:25] I saw that in the 1920s, it looks like you say the average player salary was about $1.75 a month with a dollar a day for meals.

[00:29:33] And the white baseball players made five times that salary on average and got 10 times more meal money.

[00:29:42] And then, you know, you talked about the first World Series winners, you know, and the Negro Leagues got somewhere in the range of $200 or $300.

[00:29:52] And Major League Baseball, the white players got almost 19 times as much the World Series winners.

[00:29:59] So the numbers are just crazy.

[00:30:00] I mean, I realize that, like you say, it's the same game being played at the same level, which we're going to get into.

[00:30:06] But, you know, the upshot of that op-ed piece was, hey, you know, we need to pay some compensation to people who played under this, like you say, apartheid system that had such a gross wealth difference.

[00:30:18] So how do you feel about that?

[00:30:20] If we can put you on the spot a little bit.

[00:30:21] Do you think it's fair that, you know, there be some repayment for families of players or, you know, the few surviving players?

[00:30:30] Yes, I do.

[00:30:32] I believe in reparations.

[00:30:33] One of the things you hear from some white sports fans, sports writers, some of the sort of establishment over many years is that, look, the Negro Leagues weren't at the same level of play as Major League Baseball.

[00:30:46] And that the white leagues, it was a much bigger pool of players.

[00:30:50] The level of play was higher.

[00:30:53] Competition was tougher.

[00:30:54] One of the things we've heard you say is that, you know, one of the best proofs of the level of play in the Negro Leagues was that once the game was integrated, post-Jackie Robinson, you look at the MVPs in the leagues year after year after year.

[00:31:10] And they're former Negro Leagues players, right?

[00:31:12] You want to tell us a little bit about that?

[00:31:14] Well, yes, we look at the MVP voting starting in 1949 with Jackie Robinson taking that award.

[00:31:21] And Roy Capanello in 1951, 53, 55.

[00:31:25] And Willie May sneaking in there in 1954.

[00:31:27] He should have won more MVP awards.

[00:31:29] And Don Newcomb had that incredible year in 1956 where he won the Cy Young Award and Hank Aaron in 1957.

[00:31:37] And then Ernie Banks, who came from the Kansas City Monarchs in 58 and 59.

[00:31:42] So all these players started their careers in the Negro Leagues.

[00:31:47] And we can see that baseball would not be baseball without black ballplayers.

[00:31:52] According to historian John Hallway, he recorded roughly 160 games between black and white teams.

[00:32:00] And the black teams won about 58%.

[00:32:02] I think the black teams were very stacked with talent, more so than the white teams.

[00:32:09] The talent on the black teams and their rosters are only 14 to 16 players.

[00:32:15] There was no third stringers on the black teams versus the white major league teams that had 25 men on their team.

[00:32:23] And some of those guys never got into the game.

[00:32:25] When you go look at a black team, that team is stacked with talent from North America, Latin America, and South America.

[00:32:35] To tell me that they're not equal to the teams in white America?

[00:32:39] Come on.

[00:32:40] Maybe we've never hit a home run off a black pitcher.

[00:32:43] That's a fact.

[00:32:44] So another part of the legacy of Rube Foster and the Negro Leagues more generally are some of the innovations that came about that MLB ended up adopting.

[00:32:55] And so we can talk about, you know, night baseball, night baseball.

[00:32:59] Right.

[00:32:59] We understand that that started, I think, with the Kansas City Monarchs.

[00:33:02] Is that right?

[00:33:04] Yes.

[00:33:04] In 1930, the Kansas City Monarchs tried to appeal to the working class.

[00:33:09] They said, let's have night baseball.

[00:33:13] And owner J.L. Wilkerson took out a second mortgage on his home.

[00:33:18] Bought a lighting system.

[00:33:20] Had telescopic beams that would sit on the platform of a truck.

[00:33:23] And those trucks would circle the outfield and infield.

[00:33:27] And they would play night baseball in 1930.

[00:33:30] I mean, they had numbers on the back of their uniforms a year before the Cleveland Indians and the New York Yankees did in 1929.

[00:33:39] Negro Leagues had batting helmets.

[00:33:42] Long before 1941, when the Dodgers put inserts into their hats, they didn't want to put helmets on because that would take away from their manhood and their toughness to the public.

[00:33:55] Brain safety.

[00:33:56] Wow.

[00:33:56] Yeah.

[00:33:58] But as we know, those inserts did not work.

[00:34:01] Yeah.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:02] But the Negro Leagues had some modified hard hats.

[00:34:07] Shin guards, too, right?

[00:34:08] For catchers, right?

[00:34:09] Shin guards?

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:10] Shin guards for catchers.

[00:34:12] They were innovative and creative.

[00:34:14] Once Jackie Robinson got into Major League Baseball, the game became more uptemple because he stole home plate 19 times in his career.

[00:34:22] That's crazy.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:23] Unbelievable.

[00:34:23] I still don't understand how you ever do that.

[00:34:26] Right.

[00:34:26] Right.

[00:34:27] Timing, daring, quickness, all that, all that.

[00:34:29] So on that point, the base running particularly, and also, I guess, you know, hit and run, which was popularized in the Negro Leagues.

[00:34:37] How much of that do you think was practical in terms of being more appealing to fans?

[00:34:44] And how much of that was cultural?

[00:34:46] I mean, you know, Adam can't say this, but I can.

[00:34:50] And, you know, like as black folk, you know, we find a way to put our spin on some things, right?

[00:34:56] And give a little, put a little more spice into some things, whether it's music or dance or literature or what have you.

[00:35:02] And so I'm just, I want to get to, you know, we want to get to your take on to what extent do you think the aggressive base running in baseball was a practical thing or a cultural thing or some combination?

[00:35:10] Well, I think the black baseball was more entertaining in that they wanted to maximize the rules to their advantage.

[00:35:17] In the Negro Leagues, we see double steals.

[00:35:20] We see a bunt and run.

[00:35:22] We see the suicide squeeze play at home plate.

[00:35:25] All this is absent in the white majors.

[00:35:28] Yeah.

[00:35:28] They were wedded to the idea of Babe Ruth.

[00:35:31] Once we get on the bag, we're going to stay there and wait on the home run.

[00:35:35] Where in the Negro Leagues, they're like, no, we're going to be more creative.

[00:35:40] We're going to generate a run.

[00:35:42] I'm going to wear a baggy uniform.

[00:35:43] I'm going to get hit, walk to first base, and then I'm going to steal second, throw to third on a sacrifice fly, and then come home on a suicide squeeze play.

[00:35:52] And the fans go crazy.

[00:35:53] They didn't even get a hit, but they scored a run.

[00:35:55] Right, right, right.

[00:35:56] It's called swagger, you know.

[00:35:58] You know, we hear all the time, you know, we just lost the great Willie Mays.

[00:36:02] They called him a five-tool ball player.

[00:36:04] He could do it all.

[00:36:06] I say he has a six-tool, and that six-tool was style.

[00:36:11] He made the basket catch.

[00:36:13] Yeah.

[00:36:14] He ran around the bases, and his hat flew off, and the fans would go crazy.

[00:36:18] Yeah.

[00:36:18] That's a style that the white players did not have until today, you know.

[00:36:23] So I don't get upset when a player flips his bad or turns his hat backwards or I just, whatever.

[00:36:30] You be you and enjoy the game.

[00:36:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:33] And if you can back it up, you can, you know, do what you want to do.

[00:36:36] I know that's right.

[00:36:39] Let's go back just a minute to the 1950s, right, the period right after Jackie Robinson came up and things started to integrate slowly.

[00:36:49] You point out, you know, it took 13 years just for all the major league teams.

[00:36:54] Like Tony said, finally the Red Sox were the last.

[00:36:56] But maybe you could give us just a little flavor of, like, what it was like on the road, right?

[00:37:00] Once these major league teams had one, two, three black players, what life on the road was like about, you know, rooming and who's sleeping where and, you know, getting meals on the road.

[00:37:12] Maybe you could give us a little flavor of that.

[00:37:13] What happens when black players on the road, there was usually an equal number of black players on the team because back then players roomed together.

[00:37:23] And so in the case of Larry Doby, he had he didn't have a black player to room with until Satcher Page joined him later.

[00:37:29] And so they hired a black newspaper man to be his roommate for road games.

[00:37:35] Because they couldn't have a white guy rooming with him, just to be clear.

[00:37:39] And this is Cleveland we're talking about, Northern City.

[00:37:42] Exactly.

[00:37:43] And so that's a challenge for the white teams when you might have three black players qualified to make the team, but you can only have two.

[00:37:55] You have to be even numbers.

[00:37:56] And so the black guy would be cut.

[00:38:00] And so they always had these challenges of trying to eat in the same restaurants as their white teammates, stay at the same hotels.

[00:38:11] I think it's important to know many of the white ballplayers stood up and challenged the status quo.

[00:38:20] I had a chance to visit Kansas City about six years ago for the first time, first and only time.

[00:38:25] And I had four things on my agenda.

[00:38:31] Barbecue, beer, jazz, and baseball.

[00:38:36] And I thoroughly enjoyed all four of them, sometimes at the same time.

[00:38:41] Okay.

[00:38:42] But I will say, you know, I want to thank you for your role in co-founding the museum.

[00:38:46] My visit to the museum was very emotional, quite honestly.

[00:38:51] It moved me in ways that I hadn't anticipated.

[00:38:53] It actually brought me to tears at at least one point.

[00:38:57] And so thank you for your contribution in that way, but also more globally in all the work that you're doing.

[00:39:04] I mean, you know, Adam and I constantly try to, you know, hammer home the point that learning about our history and telling the truth about our history is the foremost aspect to making reparations happen.

[00:39:19] That we can't get to reparations unless and until we are honest about, you know, what has gone down.

[00:39:26] That it can't be, you know, brushed away.

[00:39:28] It can't be whitewashed, no pun intended.

[00:39:29] But we really need to dig into the truth.

[00:39:32] And you've been doing that for 40 plus years and shining a light on not only the talent in the Negro Leagues, but the innovations, the skill, the business acumen, all of that that has been neglected for so long.

[00:39:47] So we, you know, we just, you know, give you all props and praise for doing what you've been doing.

[00:39:51] Well, thank you, Tony.

[00:39:53] I mean, it's, you know, as I fight CRT, I'll say, if it's not in a book, does that mean it didn't happen?

[00:39:59] Right.

[00:40:00] If we don't talk about it, does that mean it didn't happen?

[00:40:03] Right.

[00:40:03] If we cannot produce a birth certificate, does that mean you were not born?

[00:40:07] Right.

[00:40:07] Right.

[00:40:08] No, it's out there.

[00:40:10] Yes.

[00:40:11] You can ban whatever books that you want, but a library card is free.

[00:40:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:17] Yeah.

[00:40:19] Right.

[00:40:19] I welcome the challenge.

[00:40:22] Well, yeah, like Tony said, we really salute you and we want to really highlight your work, your lifetime of work.

[00:40:28] That's incredible, right?

[00:40:29] You're shining a light on a bunch of different things, right?

[00:40:32] The statistics this year, part of the official record, throwing off our racist blinders as baseball fans and seeing a lot more of the truth out there.

[00:40:40] And like Tony said, the museum, I mean, these are the kind of things that we need more of, you know, spreading the truth and sharing it.

[00:40:47] So young people, older people, everybody can learn and see more truth around us.

[00:40:53] Yeah.

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:54] So we thank you.

[00:40:56] Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:40:57] And I'd also like to thank both of you for doing the background research before we had this.

[00:41:03] Sometimes I get on these Zoom calls and people have no idea how to spell Negro Leagues.

[00:41:09] They just, like, well, who was Jaggie Robinson?

[00:41:12] I'm like, okay.

[00:41:14] This is going to be a while.

[00:41:16] Yeah.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:17] So I appreciate you doing the background check.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] So Larry Lester, thank you so much again.

[00:41:23] We just have so much respect for all that you've done, all that you will continue to do.

[00:41:28] We will be rooting for you, and we appreciate you making time to join us on Pay the Tabs.

[00:41:33] Thank you.

[00:41:34] It's been my pleasure.

[00:41:35] Thanks so much.

[00:41:36] You take care now.

[00:41:37] All right.

[00:41:38] Bye-bye.

[00:41:42] So, wow.

[00:41:44] Bill Greeson sure had a lot to tell us.

[00:41:47] Yeah, no kidding.

[00:41:48] What a life.

[00:41:48] What an amazing, amazing life.

[00:41:51] And still going strong at 100.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Incredible.

[00:41:54] It's still hard to keep up with this guy, you know.

[00:41:56] One thing that he mentioned, I don't know how much he really revealed about it, but the

[00:42:02] famous photograph at Iwo Jima in World War II where the flag is being raised and everything,

[00:42:07] he was right there.

[00:42:08] Yep.

[00:42:08] And had been through this, you know, really traumatic combat experience.

[00:42:12] And, you know, he comes back to America returning from combat as a hero.

[00:42:16] Like you say, one of the first black Marines rose to lieutenant.

[00:42:20] Yes.

[00:42:22] And he's back to Jim Crow back in the United States.

[00:42:25] Can't play Major League Baseball.

[00:42:27] And, wow, Larry Lester was amazing.

[00:42:31] I mean, we knew the depth of his research, but didn't really know, you know.

[00:42:36] Yeah.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:37] Over 40 years of meticulous research, digging through crates.

[00:42:41] You know, most of this was not, you know, wasn't on the internet.

[00:42:44] You know, he had to find box scores and old newspapers.

[00:42:48] Yeah.

[00:42:48] He's devoted over half of his life to exposing the truth about the Negro Leagues.

[00:42:53] Also, I don't know if this came up in his research, but it dawned on me that the Negro Leagues were maybe one of the first times where sports was, you know, intertwined with entertainment.

[00:43:04] Hmm.

[00:43:05] You know?

[00:43:06] Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:43:06] Yeah.

[00:43:06] It wasn't just ballplayers, but they were actually entertainers.

[00:43:10] They were, you know.

[00:43:10] Yeah, putting on a show.

[00:43:11] Putting on a show.

[00:43:12] Right?

[00:43:12] Yeah.

[00:43:12] And people, some of the fans would come like dressed to the nines as if they were going to the show.

[00:43:17] Yeah, those photos are amazing.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:18] It is amazing.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:19] So it was just a whole different kind of twist on baseball than what was happening in Major League Baseball at the time.

[00:43:25] I think it's fair to say, talking to these two amazing people, that it's time for some reparations to Negro League Baseball players.

[00:43:33] It's past time for America's past time to do the right thing.

[00:43:37] So this is one tab that we can definitely dig into and get some pretty clear numbers.

[00:43:41] You know, thanks to Larry Lester and his deep dives, we have a very good idea of how much the white team owner's conspiracy cost the black baseball players.

[00:43:52] So we have a few numbers to throw out, right?

[00:43:54] Thanks to Larry's research, we have the total number of players during those key years of 1920 to 1948.

[00:44:00] That was just under 2,200 players.

[00:44:03] And the average difference in pay for those key years was just over $7,000 a year.

[00:44:10] So $7,276 for each season.

[00:44:14] The average player in the Negro Leagues played about three and a half seasons.

[00:44:17] And so just doing some quick math, the lost pay that they suffered from this white supremacist racist structure was just over $54 million at that time, right?

[00:44:29] So we're talking 1920s, 30s, and 40s dollars, $54.4 million.

[00:44:35] So when you add the all-important interest compounded to today, at a very conservative rate of just 3% per year,

[00:44:45] you're looking at the better part of 100 years.

[00:44:48] That adds an additional $747 million.

[00:44:52] So the total due today to those unjustly shutout players is just over $800 million, $801.2 million.

[00:45:03] Yeah, so we can round it down to $800 million just to make it easy.

[00:45:06] We'll take $800 million, exactly.

[00:45:08] So our proposal is that MLB pays these families $800 million, that that amount be put into a pool, a reparations pool for the families.

[00:45:18] So each family will get about $107,000 for each season that the player played in the Negro Leagues.

[00:45:27] And so the average amount, based on how long these careers were, was around $300,000 or $400,000 total, right?

[00:45:33] It's up to the families how they want to divide it up.

[00:45:35] That's their business.

[00:45:37] That's their call, right?

[00:45:38] Yeah.

[00:45:38] But this seems like a very modest, conservative way to do the right thing.

[00:45:44] They can get some publicity for doing it.

[00:45:47] And for a change, it'll be something meaningful.

[00:45:49] Something very meaningful and something that's owed, something that's due, right?

[00:45:54] Right.

[00:45:56] You know, the Negro Leaguers were prevented from playing in Major League Baseball those years by this conspiracy amongst the owners.

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:05] You know, they had a monopoly, an illegal collusion, and they had this so-called gentleman's agreement, quote-unquote, where it was a wink-wink, but let's not bring in any black ball players.

[00:46:17] So, you know, Major League Baseball should be on the hook for that.

[00:46:20] All the families were entitled to the lost wealth that was not passed down intergenerationally, right?

[00:46:28] Absolutely.

[00:46:28] Yeah.

[00:46:29] And so that's the plan that Adam mapped out.

[00:46:31] The dollars that we're talking about, that's who that would go to.

[00:46:34] Yeah.

[00:46:34] And another thing is that, you know, Major League Baseball, this is the same business that we're talking about in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, right?

[00:46:40] I mean, there are more teams now.

[00:46:42] There's a hell of a lot more money now.

[00:46:44] So these guys are way more able to pay a couple big bucks.

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:49] But what's weird is, you know, there's never any reckoning, never any apology or acknowledgement, you know, let alone any reparations.

[00:46:55] But, like, in 1947, not at all, right?

[00:46:58] No.

[00:46:58] It took more than 12 more years, right?

[00:47:00] The Tigers and the Red Sox with their sort of openly racist, defiant white supremacist owners.

[00:47:05] There's 1959 was when they finally got their first black players.

[00:47:09] Crazy.

[00:47:10] Just crazy stuff.

[00:47:12] So it's not like there's ever been any remote reckoning with any of this.

[00:47:16] And, you know, if $800 million sounds like a lot of money, it is a lot of money, but it's not to these owners, right?

[00:47:23] These guys are billionaires.

[00:47:24] Billionaires.

[00:47:25] They're these, like, consortiums that own these teams.

[00:47:27] And, you know, baseball is a huge industry now.

[00:47:31] They can easily afford to cut a check like this in their sleep.

[00:47:34] Take Steve Cohen, the owner of the Mets.

[00:47:36] I just was looking him up.

[00:47:37] He's worth about $15 billion.

[00:47:39] He's a hedge fund guy.

[00:47:40] He's basically a crook who got extremely wealthy by, you know, ripping people off.

[00:47:45] He had to pay a fine of almost $2 billion for illegal insider trading, the largest fine for that ever.

[00:47:52] And he wrote a check for that.

[00:47:53] And, you know, so how about start doing something good, you know?

[00:47:58] I mean, it's just outrageous when you look at the wealth discrepancies that have developed in the last 100 years.

[00:48:05] It's gotten even worse.

[00:48:06] And still no justice, you know?

[00:48:08] So, listeners, if you're fired up about this, as we are, and want something to do to dig your teeth into, reach out to April Brown, Senior VP of Social Responsibility and Diversity for Major League Baseball.

[00:48:22] And make the claim, you know, that reparations are owed.

[00:48:25] And press MLB to do the right thing, that now's the time.

[00:48:30] Absolutely.

[00:48:30] And if we get enough voices, enough fans who love the game, who say, hey, this is something, this is time, this is something that we can do and something that we should do, you know, like things don't happen without pressures.

[00:48:42] Now's a great time to put some pressure on the big corporate conglomerate of Major League Baseball.

[00:48:46] That's so true.

[00:48:47] And, you know, we've been hearing for years now, at least since 2020, the largest corporations all talking about diversity, equity, you know, Black Lives Matter and all this stuff.

[00:48:58] And for the most part, it's all window dressing.

[00:49:00] It's all just PR.

[00:49:02] A lot of lip service.

[00:49:03] Yeah.

[00:49:03] Yeah.

[00:49:04] And nothing else, including Major League Baseball.

[00:49:06] So, I mean, come on.

[00:49:07] These guys have the funds.

[00:49:10] Let's make it happen.

[00:49:11] Let me give a shout out to Ernie DiStefano with the Ripple of Hope Project.

[00:49:15] 2020, he wrote an article called The Rippling Manifesto, which helped jumpstart the conversation around Black player reparations.

[00:49:25] Yes.

[00:49:25] So we'll have information about his article in the show notes.

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