This is an exciting time in the fight for Black reparations! As momentum builds across the country, Pay The Tab is expanding in new directions - including the first-ever reparations course at UCLA Law School. In this special episode, Tony and Adam bring the latest news, answer your questions, and share things we all can do to disrupt America's toxic system of racism, denial, and capitalist greed.
Contact Tony & Adam
[00:00:00] Gotta pay the tab. You gotta pay the tab.
[00:00:04] Hi, I'm Tony Tolbert and I'm Adam Radinsky. Welcome to pay the tab where we make the case
[00:00:20] for reparations one story at a time. Each episode we expose a story of racial injustice,
[00:00:26] and then we explore creative ways to make it right. It's been long enough America, it's
[00:00:30] time to pay the tab. Alright folks, we're really excited to be coming at you with some new updates
[00:00:42] and information about pay the tab. Absolutely, it's time for some news. The podcast keeps
[00:00:47] growing. Amazing guests. Hopefully you got a chance to check out Justin Pearson, representative
[00:00:51] from Tennessee, put down some serious fire. Yeah, we're still processing what he had
[00:00:56] He blew everyone's mind in our last live episode, but we've been doing some other things
[00:00:59] too. Not just episodes, right? Yeah, exactly. We've been speaking to community groups,
[00:01:04] we've been talking to law school classes. Yeah, you know when we got started on this,
[00:01:08] I know we've both been passionate about reparations and we wanted to do something about it and
[00:01:13] put some stuff out there. Sure. But we didn't know exactly where this was going to lead.
[00:01:17] Right? We didn't and we really didn't know who was going to be excited about it and what
[00:01:22] was going to be coming next. It was sort of one step after another and boom, you know,
[00:01:27] like things have really taken off. Yeah, I mean it seems like when you focus deeply on something,
[00:01:31] I know we've both been reading and researching and talking to people and learning from all
[00:01:35] the amazing guests we've had so far, people start thinking about you, right? And I know
[00:01:40] we've gotten some phone calls and some emails saying, you're the reparations guys, right?
[00:01:43] Can you come and talk to our group? Yeah, we've been getting pulled into a lot of
[00:01:47] conversations, a lot of situations and it also speaks to just the growing momentum behind,
[00:01:53] you know, reparations, you know, broadly, right? Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. We have a class at
[00:01:58] UCLA Law School that we completed. We did a short term class in January and we're excited that
[00:02:05] we're going to be bringing that class back in the fall as a full semester class. So that's
[00:02:09] really great news as far as we know. We are one of the only law school courses on reparations.
[00:02:14] One thing I didn't know going into that class was sort of who the students were going to be
[00:02:17] and what their perspectives are. It turns out we had a small but very dedicated group of students
[00:02:22] who are mostly about to graduate, about to become lawyers. And mostly going into high paying
[00:02:28] law firm jobs, right? And they were kind of sheepish about it for the most part.
[00:02:33] I'm sorry I'm doing this but gotta pay back my loans and stuff.
[00:02:37] But what was so electrifying for me was just seeing them
[00:02:41] light up with interest at these topics about racial justice
[00:02:45] and doing something about it.
[00:02:47] And to really, really dig into it with energy
[00:02:49] and these are optional courses, right?
[00:02:52] This during their break, their winter break, right?
[00:02:55] And so for them to show up and show up passionately.
[00:02:57] Yeah, didn't have to be there.
[00:02:58] Didn't have to be there at all, right?
[00:03:00] So that was exciting and that was encouraging.
[00:03:02] And for people who lament the state of young people,
[00:03:06] you know, I'm jazzed by young folks like that
[00:03:09] are fired up and looking to make something happen.
[00:03:11] Yeah, yeah, the young people are very open right now
[00:03:14] and energized about what they're gonna do with the world.
[00:03:17] So I think there's a lot of potential.
[00:03:19] My goal, right, is to have more and more
[00:03:23] of these new lawyers coming out,
[00:03:24] going directly into social justice,
[00:03:27] maybe even reparations.
[00:03:28] We need some litigation going on reparations, first of all.
[00:03:31] We also have been pulled into some,
[00:03:33] you know, a couple of radio programs
[00:03:35] and as you mentioned, community events,
[00:03:37] talking at different law schools,
[00:03:39] we've talked to high school students.
[00:03:40] You know, it's been a mixed bag, but a lot of fun
[00:03:44] and really exciting to engage with folks
[00:03:46] at all different backgrounds and different demographics.
[00:03:51] But making headway, part of our goal
[00:03:54] is to keep the conversation alive,
[00:03:56] keep the conversation about reparations growing
[00:03:58] because that's the way the reparations
[00:03:59] are gonna happen, right?
[00:04:00] Exactly.
[00:04:01] We saw just recently that we were listed
[00:04:04] among the top 10 black lawyers podcasts
[00:04:07] by feedspot.com, number six overall actually,
[00:04:11] and I'm not even a black lawyer,
[00:04:13] so I'm really honored to be on that list.
[00:04:15] Imagine if there were two black lawyers, huh?
[00:04:18] Might be number one.
[00:04:18] No telling, yeah.
[00:04:20] One of the main things that we get asked though
[00:04:22] is by a bunch of different folks
[00:04:24] is how's this gonna work, right?
[00:04:26] Yeah.
[00:04:27] How are we gonna pay for it?
[00:04:28] Right, is it realistic?
[00:04:29] Is it realistic?
[00:04:30] Is it practical?
[00:04:33] The money is too much money and like in California
[00:04:36] we're looking at a budget deficit,
[00:04:39] so how can we justify?
[00:04:41] Where's the money gonna come from?
[00:04:42] Where's the money gonna come from, right?
[00:04:44] And is that fair?
[00:04:46] But yeah, where's the money gonna come from?
[00:04:47] So just on that, what's the response to that?
[00:04:52] Where's the money gonna come from?
[00:04:53] Yeah, well I think there's a lot to say, right?
[00:04:55] I mean, on the one hand,
[00:04:57] getting money and where money comes from
[00:04:59] our society is so messed up right now
[00:05:01] where the very wealthy and the corporations
[00:05:03] don't pay taxes.
[00:05:04] They're not paying any money.
[00:05:06] They say that if all the billionaires would pay
[00:05:08] like a 50% tax on their money, over a billion dollars,
[00:05:13] you could pay for everything.
[00:05:14] Surely.
[00:05:15] And if the large corporations
[00:05:16] started paying their share, I mean, sky's the limit.
[00:05:19] So how are we gonna pay for it?
[00:05:20] That's how you pay for it as you get some justice
[00:05:22] in who's contributing first of all.
[00:05:24] And when we ask how do you pay for it,
[00:05:27] that ignores effect that we pay for shit that we want.
[00:05:31] Yeah.
[00:05:32] Right?
[00:05:33] Problem paying for the so-called war on terror.
[00:05:36] Right.
[00:05:37] Yeah, how many trillions was that over those wars
[00:05:39] that only resulted in death and corporate profits?
[00:05:42] Absolutely.
[00:05:42] Of our tax dollars.
[00:05:43] You know, when COVID hit,
[00:05:46] we found a way to pay for COVID related expenses,
[00:05:49] which again, that was critical, right?
[00:05:51] Right.
[00:05:52] It was a priority.
[00:05:53] Right, trillions of dollars well spent.
[00:05:54] Well spent and needed.
[00:05:56] And so that's the question is,
[00:05:57] is this a priority?
[00:05:58] If it is, we'll find a way to pay for it.
[00:06:01] Yeah, and just another note about the whole econ approach
[00:06:05] to things, how are we gonna pay for it?
[00:06:06] And what about the budget in the bottom line?
[00:06:08] There's an amazing number that the Corey Bush bill,
[00:06:10] HR414 had about had we made payments
[00:06:15] to deal with the racial wealth gap 20 years ago,
[00:06:18] the economy would have grown by many trillions of dollars.
[00:06:21] Yes.
[00:06:22] Just from doing justice to people who are sadly owed
[00:06:26] so much from our society.
[00:06:29] And so even on the straight government economy level,
[00:06:33] it's just so insane to just keep having this hoarding
[00:06:36] by the billionaires and just more and more,
[00:06:40] the wealth gap growing and the rich getting richer,
[00:06:45] the poor getting poorer.
[00:06:46] I mean, it's insane.
[00:06:47] It is insane.
[00:06:47] It's enough of this.
[00:06:49] Yeah, I'm no economist, but it goes to reason
[00:06:51] that if you infuse the economy with more money
[00:06:56] by regular folks.
[00:06:57] People need it the most.
[00:06:58] Right, but folks who need it the most,
[00:07:01] who will then spend it on goods and services and products
[00:07:06] that benefits the entire economy.
[00:07:08] Yeah, Marisa Baradar on the professor we had
[00:07:10] on episode 10 was talking about that
[00:07:11] from a straight econ approach.
[00:07:13] It's smart economics folks.
[00:07:14] So even if you come across someone
[00:07:16] who's not down with it politically
[00:07:18] or doesn't think that black folks have earned it
[00:07:21] or whatever, appeal to them just on the straight
[00:07:23] economic that this will actually help raise the entire
[00:07:27] seats for everybody.
[00:07:28] And how about tax the rich, tax the billionaires,
[00:07:31] tax the corporations?
[00:07:32] I mean, seems kind of basic.
[00:07:34] Ever since it got stripped away 40 years ago,
[00:07:37] we've got a long ways to go back,
[00:07:38] but that would do a lot.
[00:07:40] Yeah, and another question people ask us
[00:07:43] about how they should respond is why black people,
[00:07:48] why reparations for just black Americans?
[00:07:51] We have other groups that are very,
[00:07:52] very deserving such as indigenous Americans.
[00:07:55] Truly.
[00:07:56] And that's probably the biggest group
[00:07:59] that we get asked about.
[00:08:00] Well, what about native folks?
[00:08:02] And the short answer is they're absolutely entitled
[00:08:05] to reparations of course.
[00:08:06] Without a doubt.
[00:08:07] I mean, in terms of a historical claim
[00:08:09] with the absolute theft of multiple continents
[00:08:14] of land and wealth, not to mention genocide.
[00:08:17] Debt and genocide, yes.
[00:08:18] Exactly.
[00:08:19] I mean there's untold gigantic reparations
[00:08:22] that are due to indigenous people.
[00:08:24] And that's there too.
[00:08:26] Yeah, that's part of our history.
[00:08:28] That's part of our system.
[00:08:29] People also talk about what about other groups
[00:08:32] who are discriminated against
[00:08:34] in the white supremacist system we have.
[00:08:36] There are many, many different groups
[00:08:38] who are getting screwed over
[00:08:40] and have been for centuries under our system
[00:08:43] and who are also entitled to something.
[00:08:44] Absolutely.
[00:08:45] I think we don't make any bones about that.
[00:08:49] But as Maureen Simmons said in our pilot episode
[00:08:52] who was the author of the California Task Force Law,
[00:08:56] she's saying like black Americans
[00:08:58] have a unique justice claim
[00:09:00] based on the history of this country.
[00:09:02] And it is a huge claim to reparations
[00:09:05] that has never been addressed at all.
[00:09:07] At all.
[00:09:08] Right?
[00:09:09] So the short answer is yes and when we talk
[00:09:13] about these other groups and reparations.
[00:09:17] The strategy of our power elite
[00:09:20] has always been to divide and conquer,
[00:09:21] to pick groups against each other.
[00:09:23] Oh, well why are they getting that?
[00:09:25] We're not getting this.
[00:09:26] We're these separate little categories.
[00:09:28] These people don't deserve that.
[00:09:29] Exactly.
[00:09:30] Yeah, it's a zero sum game when in fact it's not.
[00:09:34] And so the people at the very top of the pyramid
[00:09:37] can quietly just sort of be hoarding all the wealth
[00:09:39] like they are right now
[00:09:41] and we just sort of fight amongst ourselves.
[00:09:42] For some scraps.
[00:09:43] Exactly, exactly.
[00:09:45] So yeah, so the short answer
[00:09:47] to what about other groups is yeah.
[00:09:49] Definitely.
[00:09:50] But if you're talking about large historical reparations,
[00:09:53] indigenous Americans, black Americans,
[00:09:55] those are a couple pretty gigantic reparations claims.
[00:09:58] Another thing we're taught is that
[00:10:00] there's limited resources, they're scarcity,
[00:10:01] it's a zero sum game.
[00:10:03] So if they're taking something,
[00:10:04] that means it's gonna come away from you
[00:10:06] and that's just bogus.
[00:10:07] Well that's how we're all played against each other.
[00:10:10] You know, this trumped up no pun intended.
[00:10:12] This trumped up notion of scarcity
[00:10:15] to suggest that okay, if we accommodate this group
[00:10:19] that's gonna be at the expense of another group.
[00:10:21] And if we do this for them,
[00:10:23] then we're screwing over these folks.
[00:10:26] And let's look at where the source of it really comes from.
[00:10:31] And how do we make that equally distributed
[00:10:34] in a more equitable fashion?
[00:10:36] Right, the only thing that's scarce
[00:10:37] is the way things are being divided up
[00:10:39] and what people are getting right when you have,
[00:10:41] I just heard the other day
[00:10:43] that during the couple years of COVID,
[00:10:45] the 10 richest men, and they're all men
[00:10:47] on the planet Earth, more than doubled their wealth
[00:10:51] from something like 700 billion to 1.5 trillion.
[00:10:54] How crazy is that?
[00:10:55] While everybody else is like tightening up
[00:10:57] and suffering, yeah, getting evicted.
[00:11:00] And so what is going on?
[00:11:02] We are in some crazy times
[00:11:04] where this stuff is getting exposed more.
[00:11:06] So I think, yeah, these things are all tied together.
[00:11:09] Right, the different kinds of reparations
[00:11:11] that we need that the structural repair
[00:11:13] and change of our society, it's time.
[00:11:16] It's desperately needed.
[00:11:17] It's past time.
[00:11:18] It's past time.
[00:11:19] It's not sustainable the way that we're heading now.
[00:11:21] That's right, that's right.
[00:11:22] And there are so many,
[00:11:24] separate apart from the issue of reparations,
[00:11:25] just so many people that are suffering, right?
[00:11:29] So many people that are unhoused,
[00:11:32] so many people that aren't able to make a living wage
[00:11:35] that aren't able to feed their family.
[00:11:38] Because of our system.
[00:11:38] Because of our system, right.
[00:11:40] Which doesn't have to be this way.
[00:11:41] It doesn't have to be this way, right?
[00:11:43] And we hold up capitalism as this gold standard.
[00:11:46] But yet and still, we're not gonna compensate
[00:11:50] folks who were forced to serve this capitalist machine.
[00:11:56] Right, okay, why aren't we talking about capitalism
[00:11:59] for that, right?
[00:11:59] Right.
[00:12:00] You know, like what, you can't have it both ways.
[00:12:04] I think was it Martin Luther King
[00:12:05] who was talking about socialism for the rich
[00:12:07] and capitalism for the poor?
[00:12:09] Exactly.
[00:12:09] And that's spot on.
[00:12:11] It's true then, it's true now.
[00:12:13] Well, one of the other things that people
[00:12:14] commonly bring up is that, well, that was so long ago.
[00:12:18] Slavery ended in 1865.
[00:12:21] Why are we still talking about it?
[00:12:24] Black folks just need to work harder,
[00:12:27] make better decisions, focus on their education
[00:12:31] and do like other people have done.
[00:12:33] Right, no more handouts.
[00:12:34] No more handouts, right?
[00:12:35] That was so long ago.
[00:12:38] Why are we focusing on that now?
[00:12:40] Right, and related thing you hear is,
[00:12:42] well, nobody alive now was enslaved
[00:12:44] and no white people alive now own slaves.
[00:12:48] So why are we even talking about this?
[00:12:50] And there's a lot to unpack there, right?
[00:12:52] There's a lot to unpack, you know?
[00:12:54] And we can start with suggesting that,
[00:12:55] yeah, even though no one alive wasn't in slavery,
[00:12:59] there are many people who are alive
[00:13:01] who benefited from the institution of slavery.
[00:13:04] Like every white American?
[00:13:05] Pretty much.
[00:13:06] I mean, right, or like the country of America,
[00:13:09] it's wealth built on stolen labor.
[00:13:11] Absolutely.
[00:13:12] Right, to the tune of $20 trillion potentially, right?
[00:13:16] And if the value of the forced labor
[00:13:18] that was not compensated,
[00:13:19] this whole retort that it was too long ago
[00:13:22] was happening back in the 1860s.
[00:13:24] Right, right, directly after slavery.
[00:13:27] Like right after slavery,
[00:13:29] they were saying no, that was too long ago.
[00:13:30] Right, so.
[00:13:31] That's over, we're moving on.
[00:13:32] So when was it the right time?
[00:13:34] Right, if it wasn't then, when would it have been?
[00:13:36] So yeah, so that was bogus from the start
[00:13:38] and it's still a bogus claim.
[00:13:40] Yeah, and the fact that literally nothing
[00:13:42] has ever been done to address
[00:13:44] or really even acknowledge our history,
[00:13:47] the atrocities of the past and the present,
[00:13:49] nothing's been done.
[00:13:50] Right, like you said, or even acknowledge, right?
[00:13:52] Yeah, so it can't be too long ago.
[00:13:54] And the fact is, we're not just talking about people
[00:13:58] who may have directly enslaved somebody
[00:14:00] or been enslaved, we're talking about our society,
[00:14:04] what our government, what our country has done.
[00:14:07] So the country that we're all still living in,
[00:14:09] so it's not just like well,
[00:14:11] did your ancestors own slaves or not?
[00:14:13] No.
[00:14:14] It's much broader than that.
[00:14:16] Yeah, I mean this stuff happened yesterday,
[00:14:18] even when you're talking about slavery, right?
[00:14:20] And slave people, we're not talking many generations.
[00:14:23] And yeah, the wealth built off of slavery,
[00:14:25] the wealth built, these plantations
[00:14:26] are still making money with tourists coming
[00:14:29] and it's crazy.
[00:14:31] I mean, this stuff never stops.
[00:14:32] Tourists and weddings and picnics
[00:14:34] and parties and shit, like what kind of madness is that?
[00:14:36] Hospitality, come on.
[00:14:38] Another thing is some people are uncomfortable
[00:14:40] talking about money and talking about checks
[00:14:42] and reparations that way.
[00:14:44] Some black people are uncomfortable,
[00:14:45] some white people, all different people
[00:14:47] might have a problem with talking about money
[00:14:49] but I just wanna put something out there
[00:14:50] which is it seems like black people and money
[00:14:54] don't go together well in the American imagination.
[00:14:57] It's like those two things are not supposed
[00:14:59] to be in the same picture.
[00:15:01] Not supposed to be in the same picture,
[00:15:02] particularly if it's government money
[00:15:04] that we're talking about.
[00:15:05] There's a concern that oh well they're irresponsible
[00:15:10] with their money, what are they gonna do?
[00:15:12] They're gonna buy some Cadillacs
[00:15:14] or spend it on liquor or drugs.
[00:15:17] This is all the training we got, right?
[00:15:18] I mean this is all just Kool-Aid, you know?
[00:15:20] And yet it seeps in and it gets into people's
[00:15:23] consciousness, it's tough.
[00:15:25] It is tough but it is part and parcel
[00:15:27] of what we're dealing with.
[00:15:29] Interestingly, like people aren't concerned
[00:15:32] when white folks come into some money.
[00:15:34] No, that's awesome.
[00:15:35] Right?
[00:15:36] Invest it, yeah.
[00:15:37] No problem with that.
[00:15:38] Hedge funds, sure, yeah.
[00:15:40] Yeah, no exactly but there's this fascination
[00:15:42] with black celebrities and all their money
[00:15:44] and like what do you do with all that money?
[00:15:46] It's like the white guys sitting back quietly
[00:15:49] making extra zeros on their money.
[00:15:51] Nobody knows their name.
[00:15:53] And no one's asking about what they do with that.
[00:15:55] Or white celebrities, yeah.
[00:15:57] And no one is concerned with how
[00:15:59] they're managing their money.
[00:16:00] Right.
[00:16:01] You know, yeah.
[00:16:01] Financial literacy, what the fuck?
[00:16:03] Yes, that's a very, very thinly veiled, you know, racist trope.
[00:16:08] Yeah, so we wanna give a quick update
[00:16:12] on what's been going on in the country
[00:16:14] and here in California because there's a lot.
[00:16:17] There's a lot.
[00:16:18] Yeah, as far as reparations people always wanna know
[00:16:20] like what's the latest?
[00:16:21] And you know, there is a new US Congress
[00:16:25] House Resolution that was introduced
[00:16:27] by Cori Bush in 2023, HR 414,
[00:16:31] which has a long list of reasons
[00:16:34] why we need reparations for black Americans.
[00:16:36] And it calls for action by Congress.
[00:16:40] She had several co-sponsors and one of the pieces of that
[00:16:43] that got picked up by the media
[00:16:44] because they always like to focus on the money
[00:16:46] but this one is interesting, right?
[00:16:48] Is the 14 trillion, right?
[00:16:50] Yes.
[00:16:51] And...
[00:16:52] The wealth gap?
[00:16:53] The wealth gap, right?
[00:16:54] And so they bring out something
[00:16:57] that we've already talked about on this show
[00:16:58] which is the just incredible gap
[00:17:00] between the average wealth of white Americans
[00:17:03] and black Americans, right?
[00:17:04] That white Americans on average have 10 times
[00:17:07] the wealth that black Americans have.
[00:17:10] And by wealth we're talking about
[00:17:11] the difference between what you own and what you owe.
[00:17:14] Right, exactly.
[00:17:15] And it's usually accumulated over time, over generations
[00:17:18] whether it be real estate or all these different things
[00:17:20] that white people have had an extra free ticket to
[00:17:23] and black people have been largely shut out of.
[00:17:25] So it shouldn't be a big surprise.
[00:17:27] But anyway, the number they peg at about 14 trillion
[00:17:31] which comes out to about $333,000 per black American
[00:17:35] just in terms of the wealth gap.
[00:17:36] Just in terms of that one measure of reparations
[00:17:39] and boy, that's got the mainstream media
[00:17:43] spending a little bit.
[00:17:44] Oh, that's got folks wondering,
[00:17:45] are you asking like how the heck did you come up
[00:17:47] that number and how are we gonna pay for it?
[00:17:48] And people like tripping all over themselves
[00:17:50] to get away from that.
[00:17:51] So that's exciting at the national level
[00:17:53] and on the state level of course,
[00:17:55] here in California, the task force
[00:17:57] has been very hard at work.
[00:17:58] They've got over a hundred possible bills
[00:18:01] that they've sent to Sacramento
[00:18:02] where the politicians now it's their turn
[00:18:05] to do something about it, right?
[00:18:06] And we hope that there's gonna be some action there.
[00:18:08] Some real action.
[00:18:09] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:10] And so just out of the more than 100 proposals they made
[00:18:14] are things like guaranteed income
[00:18:16] for descendants of the enslaved.
[00:18:18] Free tuition to California public colleges
[00:18:20] and universities and black Californians.
[00:18:22] A new K through 12 black studies curriculum
[00:18:25] to be taught in our schools
[00:18:26] and actually get some truth spreading around here.
[00:18:27] Which is sorely needed, right?
[00:18:29] That's almost as important as anything else, right?
[00:18:32] Yeah, definitely.
[00:18:33] And so the recommendations that came out of the task force
[00:18:35] were then translated by the California legislative
[00:18:39] black caucus into some actual bills, right?
[00:18:42] They've introduced, right?
[00:18:43] They've introduced seven bills already
[00:18:45] and then there are seven more on the way.
[00:18:49] One of their main bills is an actual apology
[00:18:52] for the violations that occurred against African Americans.
[00:18:56] Right, a formal apology.
[00:18:57] Which many folks say that that's where reparations must start.
[00:19:00] Right, acknowledging.
[00:19:02] Shouldn't be too hard.
[00:19:02] Shouldn't be, you know, one of the other bills
[00:19:06] that they propose is to return properties
[00:19:10] that were taken from black folks
[00:19:12] through the power of imminent domain,
[00:19:14] which is where government can snatch up property
[00:19:16] saying that it's needed for a higher use.
[00:19:18] Right.
[00:19:19] Or where neighborhoods where freeway was cut through
[00:19:22] with thriving black community.
[00:19:23] Right, openly done on the basis of race.
[00:19:25] Now we also have to say that this legislative,
[00:19:28] the California black caucus has not introduced any bills
[00:19:32] asking for money.
[00:19:35] Right, not yet.
[00:19:35] Not yet.
[00:19:37] And they're taking some heat for that, frankly.
[00:19:39] Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:40] And I think maybe rightfully so.
[00:19:43] I mean, I got-
[00:19:44] Some people are getting impatient.
[00:19:45] Some people are getting impatient.
[00:19:46] Some people are like, look, you know, like this,
[00:19:47] that's not what reparations looks like, right?
[00:19:50] If there's not a check involved, you know,
[00:19:53] what are we talking about here?
[00:19:54] I've already heard the governor talking about,
[00:19:55] well, this is an interesting list.
[00:19:57] We've already done half of these things
[00:19:58] and that's kind of a, if he can even say that,
[00:20:00] that's a sign that maybe-
[00:20:01] We're not doing enough.
[00:20:02] This isn't directed enough.
[00:20:03] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:05] Let's get to the point and yeah.
[00:20:06] And it's gonna be tough for these politicians, right?
[00:20:09] I mean, the democratic politicians,
[00:20:10] they're doing a little dance,
[00:20:12] trying to say the right thing
[00:20:14] without sounding like they're gonna actually do it.
[00:20:17] Well, and that's why where public,
[00:20:20] pressure comes into play, right?
[00:20:22] Politicians only act when there's enough pressure
[00:20:27] exerted upon them where it makes it difficult
[00:20:29] for them not to act.
[00:20:29] Right, we don't have the money to bribe them
[00:20:31] like the big interests do,
[00:20:32] so we have to do it with pressure.
[00:20:34] Absolutely, right?
[00:20:35] And so that's where, you know,
[00:20:36] individuals and communities and organizers
[00:20:38] need to come together and organize
[00:20:40] in a way with a coordinated effort
[00:20:42] to put some heat on these folks
[00:20:44] to do more and do better.
[00:20:46] Definitely, and at the national level,
[00:20:48] you know, the state of New York in late 2023,
[00:20:50] the governor signed a bill just like California
[00:20:52] is that forms a committee to look at reparations
[00:20:55] and make recommendations.
[00:20:56] And Illinois is doing a similar thing.
[00:20:58] There's momentum, cities,
[00:21:00] more and more American cities are taking action.
[00:21:03] A lot of it is a little bit of lip service sometimes.
[00:21:05] Maybe a ceremonial thing.
[00:21:07] Evanston gave away a few bucks
[00:21:09] with their marijuana money.
[00:21:10] That's awesome, but you know,
[00:21:11] I did see that Providence Rhode Island,
[00:21:13] it seems that the biggest program
[00:21:15] I've come across of $10 million
[00:21:17] for a reparations program.
[00:21:18] A lot of people don't know that Rhode Island
[00:21:20] was one of the centers of the slave trade
[00:21:23] back in the day, right?
[00:21:24] I mean, there were ships coming and going
[00:21:26] from Providence, so that's appropriate
[00:21:28] that that city is taking some action.
[00:21:30] Yeah, yeah, now there's some debate
[00:21:32] about these programs though, right?
[00:21:33] Is that whether, you know,
[00:21:34] do they actually help or do they just get in the way,
[00:21:37] right?
[00:21:38] Is it a distraction from the main argument, right?
[00:21:40] National reparations, federal government
[00:21:43] as the main actor and the entity with the largest,
[00:21:49] the deepest pockets, right?
[00:21:50] And we know that William Darity,
[00:21:52] the renowned economist who was the leading economist
[00:21:56] in this area of reparations,
[00:21:57] poo-poo's these, you know,
[00:21:59] one-offs in these local and state...
[00:22:01] Right, don't waste time, don't distract.
[00:22:02] Don't waste time, don't fill around.
[00:22:04] Don't be able to say you did that, we're done.
[00:22:05] Right, right, don't let folks off the hook.
[00:22:08] Let's keep concerted pressure on federal government
[00:22:12] to make this happen.
[00:22:13] And you know, it's hard to know.
[00:22:16] I mean, it's...
[00:22:16] It's a tough question.
[00:22:17] It is, it is.
[00:22:18] It is tough and I think where I'm at these days is,
[00:22:21] well, let's push on both fronts, right?
[00:22:23] I think every little thing,
[00:22:24] every city and state and community
[00:22:27] and church and office
[00:22:29] that does something about racial justice and awareness,
[00:22:32] it's a good thing.
[00:22:32] It can only be a good thing.
[00:22:34] And as long as people aren't saying,
[00:22:35] okay, good, we're done.
[00:22:36] We're done.
[00:22:37] Now you guys are set.
[00:22:38] Right.
[00:22:39] It's like, yeah, it also definitely has to happen
[00:22:40] at the highest levels.
[00:22:41] Yes.
[00:22:42] The society is all screwed up.
[00:22:44] We are structures are so unfair and so messed up
[00:22:47] that it has to happen at the highest levels.
[00:22:49] And like you say, that's where the funding is too.
[00:22:51] That's where the trillions come in.
[00:22:53] Yes, yes.
[00:22:54] But there is an argument that small victories
[00:22:57] or victories at a local or state level
[00:23:00] can create some momentum
[00:23:01] and pressure at the federal level.
[00:23:04] Yeah, I think I agree with that.
[00:23:05] I just can't see it as a bad thing
[00:23:08] unless there's some city that's doing something
[00:23:11] that's just sort of for the publicity
[00:23:13] and it's not really having any effect.
[00:23:15] You know, I can see how that could be annoying.
[00:23:16] Now we have to put this in the context
[00:23:20] of what else is going on in the country too, right?
[00:23:22] That there's a huge backlash.
[00:23:24] Yes.
[00:23:25] Not just about reparations,
[00:23:26] but generally about telling the truth about some stuff.
[00:23:30] There's a concerted effort amongst some folks
[00:23:32] to actively suppress teaching and learning
[00:23:36] about our real history, right?
[00:23:38] About racism in America.
[00:23:41] Shocking, right?
[00:23:42] Like news alert, there's been racism in America.
[00:23:45] Yeah.
[00:23:46] But this whole movement that's, you know,
[00:23:49] painting critical race studies as this,
[00:23:51] oh my gosh, we're poisoning our kids' minds
[00:23:54] so this whole anti-CRS movement,
[00:23:55] this anti-diversity equity and inclusion, DEI movement.
[00:24:00] Right.
[00:24:00] You know, the Supreme Court,
[00:24:02] and these knuckleheads,
[00:24:04] deciding that racism no longer exists
[00:24:06] so we don't need affirmative action anymore, right?
[00:24:09] Clarence Thomas in his dumb ass.
[00:24:11] I mean, part of me is like, okay,
[00:24:12] this shows that progress is happening.
[00:24:15] Like you don't get this kind of backlash
[00:24:17] unless there's some genuine fear.
[00:24:19] And you know, part of this I'm sure is the power brokers
[00:24:21] that as usual are playing race and playing people
[00:24:25] against each other to distract from the issues
[00:24:27] and get, you know, conservative votes out at the polls.
[00:24:30] But also I think at some level,
[00:24:32] there is a genuine fear among white America
[00:24:37] that our precious supremacy system here is under attack.
[00:24:42] You know?
[00:24:43] And really like whether it's conscious
[00:24:45] or subconscious or whatever,
[00:24:46] I think this does show that the fight for bringing truth out
[00:24:51] and critical race studies and so forth,
[00:24:54] the fight for truth and reckoning is getting through.
[00:24:59] And so there is pushback.
[00:25:01] And I think if anything, it's a call to action, right?
[00:25:03] Well, it is a call to action.
[00:25:04] And I think you're right, Adam,
[00:25:06] that in a way it is a positive sign
[00:25:07] the sense that folks are nervous, right?
[00:25:11] And are feeling some pressure.
[00:25:13] And I think people that are in these positions of power
[00:25:16] recognize that if they admit some responsibility,
[00:25:21] admit some liability,
[00:25:22] that then puts them on the hook
[00:25:24] to make some corrective actions, right?
[00:25:26] To do something about it.
[00:25:27] Pandora's box is very scary.
[00:25:28] Yeah, right.
[00:25:29] So a lot of people would much rather like
[00:25:31] keep that box closed and know
[00:25:32] we're not gonna talk about that.
[00:25:33] We're not gonna teach it.
[00:25:34] We're not gonna let our kids learn about that.
[00:25:36] We're gonna keep that hidden.
[00:25:42] Let's pan out and talk about sort of more globally,
[00:25:47] like in order for reparations to happen,
[00:25:50] for us to really make reparations a real thing,
[00:25:57] everything needs to change, right?
[00:25:59] And that's not-
[00:26:00] We know that.
[00:26:01] And that's not oversimplification.
[00:26:04] That's not hyperbole,
[00:26:05] but our current system is not working
[00:26:11] for a whole lot of folks.
[00:26:13] And as we talked before,
[00:26:14] not just for black folks,
[00:26:15] but for a lot of people, right?
[00:26:18] And the earth as we,
[00:26:20] the planet as we know it is in peril,
[00:26:24] financially, environmentally, spiritually, right?
[00:26:29] And that's not, that's no surprise, right?
[00:26:32] And we can try to hide that.
[00:26:33] We can try to consumerize our way out of it,
[00:26:37] medicate our way out of it.
[00:26:38] But the reality is,
[00:26:41] we are spending trillions of dollars on wars.
[00:26:44] We are allowing corporations
[00:26:46] and the wealthiest individuals to stack up dollars
[00:26:49] like it's monopoly money, hoarding money.
[00:26:52] We are still invested in racist structures and systems.
[00:26:57] And as the great historian Robin Kelly mentioned,
[00:26:59] like the whole system, the whole structure needs to change
[00:27:02] if we're really wanting to live out
[00:27:04] the world that we wanna see for everybody.
[00:27:06] Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:07] I mean, really we look around us.
[00:27:09] I mean, we are living in weird late stage capitalism.
[00:27:14] And we see it all around is like you say.
[00:27:15] I mean, the wealthiest are just hoarding
[00:27:18] while the poorest people are getting poorer and poorer,
[00:27:21] more people on the streets.
[00:27:23] It is absolutely crazy times.
[00:27:25] And the system does seem to be shaking a little bit.
[00:27:28] Little bit, yeah.
[00:27:29] Like it's whether it's the planet itself
[00:27:32] or our so-called economic system.
[00:27:35] I mean, things are very strange right now.
[00:27:38] And to me, this does give,
[00:27:42] and to me that does give some promise.
[00:27:44] Yes.
[00:27:45] Because it's, you know,
[00:27:46] the system needs to be disrupted.
[00:27:47] It needs to be changed.
[00:27:48] If we're gonna ever see black reparations in America,
[00:27:51] the way we look at our country needs to change.
[00:27:54] Absolutely.
[00:27:55] Like you say, the way the system works,
[00:27:57] it needs to be changed.
[00:27:58] And I think it all starts with awareness.
[00:28:00] I think you're right.
[00:28:01] I think you're right.
[00:28:02] And I think there's an opening that's been cracked.
[00:28:04] There's a something's been cracked open.
[00:28:05] I think there's an opportunity for us to
[00:28:08] create more awareness and generate more
[00:28:11] interest and excitement and honest engagement
[00:28:13] around these issues that we're talking about.
[00:28:14] Well, and I'm encouraged by the fact
[00:28:16] that more young white folks,
[00:28:20] you know, under 30 and under,
[00:28:24] last that I saw was that about half of them
[00:28:27] are actually in favor of reparations.
[00:28:28] I think that's right.
[00:28:29] We were just hearing, yeah,
[00:28:30] about half of young white Americans.
[00:28:31] That's incredible.
[00:28:32] I mean, we've come a long way in just a short time.
[00:28:35] Yes.
[00:28:36] Yeah.
[00:28:36] And then the young people are leading their way
[00:28:38] on so many issues that they've,
[00:28:40] they've drunk a little bit less Kool-Aid overall.
[00:28:42] And so they're a little more open and,
[00:28:44] yes.
[00:28:44] And getting different ideas on their phones.
[00:28:46] And you know, it's, it's exciting.
[00:28:49] Something else people ask is what, like,
[00:28:50] what can they do, right?
[00:28:52] In their individual capacity, right?
[00:28:56] So, you know, one thing that folks can do
[00:28:59] is get educated about the issues.
[00:29:02] Right?
[00:29:03] Yeah, which is not always easy.
[00:29:05] It isn't easy because there's a lot
[00:29:06] of misinformation out there
[00:29:07] and it takes time to, you know,
[00:29:10] check out some reliable sources.
[00:29:12] But as you get educated,
[00:29:15] talk to people about these issues.
[00:29:17] Yeah.
[00:29:17] Right?
[00:29:18] Start comfortable, small,
[00:29:20] if you have to.
[00:29:21] Yeah, one-on-one conversations.
[00:29:22] A good place to start.
[00:29:23] One-on-one.
[00:29:24] It could be with your partner.
[00:29:25] It could be with a family member.
[00:29:26] It could be with a friend, a co-worker,
[00:29:30] colleague, a mentor, a mentee.
[00:29:33] But yeah, but try to have some real deep conversations
[00:29:38] with the goal of seeking some understanding, right?
[00:29:42] And to the extent that you are, in fact,
[00:29:46] believing that repair needs to be made,
[00:29:50] make those arguments to people, right?
[00:29:52] Have those conversations.
[00:29:53] We need to move public opinion
[00:29:56] and part of that's gonna have to happen
[00:29:59] on a very small one-to-one, one-to-two,
[00:30:01] you know, small group in your church group,
[00:30:03] in your neighborhood association at the workplace.
[00:30:07] Right, and it often, like you say,
[00:30:09] can be uncomfortable and it's going against the tide, right?
[00:30:11] Because the way we are programmed
[00:30:13] and pushed to behave in our society
[00:30:15] is go along with the status quo.
[00:30:17] Just keep going along.
[00:30:18] And try to make it, try to take care of yourself.
[00:30:22] Yeah, but you can and keep moving.
[00:30:24] But don't question things.
[00:30:25] Don't go against the grain.
[00:30:26] And so that's, it's not easy.
[00:30:28] It isn't.
[00:30:29] It's not easy, but it's so worth it
[00:30:31] because it's the only way that we're gonna get out of this
[00:30:34] mindset that we've been stuck in.
[00:30:37] And we certainly need to keep the heat on the politicians,
[00:30:40] right, at all levels, local, state, federal, right?
[00:30:46] That they are, the levers of, have the levers of power,
[00:30:49] you know, they have access to power
[00:30:52] to the extent that we can get access to them
[00:30:54] and put some pressure on to do the right thing.
[00:30:56] We're gonna need that.
[00:30:57] Yeah, and there's a lot of lip service right now,
[00:30:58] so it's the time to take advantage of that.
[00:31:00] These guys are saying, oh, I'm all in favor.
[00:31:01] It's like, well, okay, let's do it.
[00:31:03] Put your vote where your mouth is.
[00:31:05] Yeah, don't say we already did it
[00:31:06] because it hasn't been done.
[00:31:08] Right, don't talk about it, be about it.
[00:31:09] Yeah, and one last thing I would say
[00:31:11] for people who wanna know what can I do
[00:31:12] is just think about disrupting.
[00:31:15] We're looking to disrupt the system.
[00:31:17] We're looking to change the system
[00:31:18] and it really does start with each individual person's,
[00:31:22] their life, their situation.
[00:31:23] You can connect with groups that are disrupting.
[00:31:25] There's a lot of amazing organizing going on right now
[00:31:28] in your local community.
[00:31:29] And anyway, we can, you know,
[00:31:31] let's look at those cracks in the system
[00:31:34] and let's wedge them a little wider open
[00:31:36] and see what we can disrupt.
[00:31:38] Yeah, so let's talk a little bit
[00:31:39] about our plans for the future, right?
[00:31:40] This is gonna be an exciting year for Pay The Tab.
[00:31:42] I think that's safe to say.
[00:31:43] We started off with a bang having Justin Pearson on the show.
[00:31:46] A big bang.
[00:31:47] Yeah, that was the big bang.
[00:31:49] Yes.
[00:31:50] And now our universe is unfolding
[00:31:52] and yeah, we've got some incredible guests
[00:31:54] coming later this year
[00:31:55] and we're definitely gonna do more teaching,
[00:31:58] more public events.
[00:31:59] Yep, more speaking, more community engagements.
[00:32:02] And in very exciting news,
[00:32:03] we're looking to take the show on the road, right?
[00:32:06] Yes, yes, let's commit to it here on the air, right?
[00:32:09] We are going on the road
[00:32:10] and a spoiler alert we may be heading
[00:32:12] in the southeasterly direction, possibly from there.
[00:32:15] Yes, yes, potentially.
[00:32:16] The state that begins with A and ends in A,
[00:32:19] but maybe not, we'll see.
[00:32:21] That's not Alaska.
[00:32:23] Right, right.
[00:32:24] Yeah, so we appreciate your support, your listening,
[00:32:27] your sharing of the podcast.
[00:32:30] Keep coming back to Pay The Tab
[00:32:31] and we'll keep coming at you.
[00:32:33] We'll see you next time.
[00:32:34] See you then, peace.
[00:32:35] Pay The Tab.
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